hello all..

just got the new su5 in the office and i'm working with it at the moment. I just want to know what are people's thoughts on rendering packages. i have been using su for a few years but we were wondering for novices, with lil to no experience and tight budgets, which rendering program would you all suggest. we want something that looks good and is easy to use. we run pc's in the office.

i have read a few diff. threads and cinema 4d seems quite popular.. bare in mind we run things pretty tight here(no piracy etc) and the only other software we currently run is cad 2006, photoshop, coreldraw, and word(for richard) so not sure if that has any effect if we couldn't export and clean up the model in other programs???

what are you thoughts???
(i may have opened up pandora's box here....)

thanks

ouesty

Here you can find a free render program called POV-Ray.
There's a good tutorial on the second link.

http://www.povray.org/
http://amazone.crai.archi.fr//Ruby/RUBY_Library_Depot.htm

Good luck!

I know you said tight budget, but I think Lightwave is a great buy for about $900.00 www.newtek.com
Although it's hard to compete with free...

Considering Max is about three times that and VIZ is about twice that, it looked like a great buy to me. We still beta test formZ here but I think after using sketchup, that program had better change or it won't enjoy such a long shelf life. Also, Maxwell is a great deal especially during the beta phase. My nightmare scenario is that someone will come in and buy out Maxwell and it will get swallowed up in some other 3d app.... :bang head

I use Lightwave, but I'm not power user. I find it's GUI confusing and unintuitive. But, they offering a good deal now which includes Vue 5. If you are use to hidden menus and functions then it might be the program for you.

if you already own photoshop, why not try to 'render' the sketchUp outs by hand? it's much simpler, much efficient, sometimes more tasty than using render engines... and it gives you skills you'll not lose when switching from one renderer to an other (which will happen often, I presume... Accurender, Lightscape, MentalRay, Renderman, FinalRender, Brazil, Vray, Maxwell, Vue5, POVstillalive, etc. what will be the next one?). Don't forget that Photoshop is the only tool every renderguy has in common on earth (except if they use the Gimp of course) :D

Ditto Ryo!

I made some renderings in Artlantis but the client was much more enthusiastic about the SU renders with photoshop touchups!
This of course due to my inhability for producing realistic renderings that is!

Do the client really need realistic rendering of not?
Often it's just a self-pleasure for the designer himself...
There are clients who need real 'rich' material (often shiny, glossy things like inox steel, marbles and lacquered woods) and there are others who just want a global idea of the project. For the latter, a quickly photoshopped SketchUp drawing is well enough, and even for the first, if you can work with masks and gradients in PS, it's -most of the time- enough as well.
A too precise drawing can be deadly when shown to the wrong client...

Agree with you there Ryo , most clients do not need photorealistic renderings , they just need a graphic image they can relate to , so SU comes as a great tool . The only clients that want photorealistic renderings are either developers or they need them to convince somebody in the municipalityor some other authority . So I say go with SU and photoshop/gimp. But if you want to make a living from renderings then it is worth investing in a serious renderer.

Do the client really need realistic rendering of not?
Often it's just a self-pleasure for the designer himself...
There are clients who need real 'rich' material (often shiny, glossy things like inox steel, marbles and lacquered woods) and there are others who just want a global idea of the project. For the latter, a quickly photoshopped SketchUp drawing is well enough, and even for the first, if you can work with masks and gradients in PS, it's -most of the time- enough as well.
A too precise drawing can be deadly when shown to the wrong client...

I agree for the most part. But, we have a client, British Petroleum, that expects almost photorealistic interpretations of what we are proposing. I think it depends on the clients knowledge of technology and level of sophistication.

These people, corporate facilities types, read the high-end design mags and expect similar work. We cannot go into a meeting for a 20-million dollar corporate headquarters build-out with charcoal drawings and some laid back hippie philosophy on how it will all really look like when it's done.

Agree with you there Ryo , most clients do not need photorealistic renderings , they just need a graphic image they can relate to , so SU comes as a great tool . The only clients that want photorealistic renderings are either developers or they need them to convince somebody in the municipalityor some other authority . So I say go with SU and photoshop/gimp. But if you want to make a living from renderings then it is worth investing in a serious renderer.
I don't totally agree :D
I mean, sketchUp renders are even better than photorealistic ones to convince public authorities and municipalities! The fact that it is more abstract (as a sketch is) than realistic is better to convey general ideas. When a drawing is too precise, one focus often on undesirable details (the one we don't like for -who knows- reasons) and enter into an avoidable fight. The level of abstraction of a hand drawing leaves space to the power of imagination of the viewer, and things are less 'black or white' (I like or I don't like), and the viewer is able to 'see' what isn't actually in the drawing :wondering
The whole key is to give the viewer the impression 'everything isn't finished, the process isn't ended and I can interfere in there'... which is difficult with photorealistic renders, because you litterally say to the viewer 'this is reality, and you can't change anything to that'. Therefore you got two armies: the 'yes go for it' camp, and the 'no way, I'll never accept it' side... :D

That said, maxwell or vray rendered perspective are very impressive... for lighting tests or final images...

Even worse, once you show a photorealistic view to a client, he will expect the same at the next meeting... like if it was done in 20 minutes... I often hear architects complaining on their clients, arguying this and that. Well, start but not giving them what they don't desserve unless you're getting paid for it! The ability to produce such images is dangerously becoming accepted as a normal thing by clients. It's like nobody's realizing how much these beauties (in some rare cases) cost! I mean, one has to spend 1500 $ for a computer, another let's say min 3000 $ for softwares (PS, acad, SU, PIranesi, 3Dmax and what else...) then spend days and days and days to produce one single photorealistic image??? Com'on, who really gets paied to do that? Hello??? Well, in other words, feel your clients needs and work in function of those... SU and PS still :rock on:

I agree with Ryo and Michel. I think that clients can get hung up on to many things with photo realistic renderings, especially in the schematic design. (A particular material that may end up being out of budget, etc.) There is a spiritual quality to more abstract drawings, and it gives you the designer more freedom to propose change as the project progresses.

Well, start but not giving them what they don't desserve unless you're getting paid for it! The ability to produce such images is dangerously becoming accepted as a normal thing by clients. It's like nobody's realizing how much these beauties (in some rare cases) cost! I mean, one has to spend 1500 $ for a computer, another let's say min 3000 $ for softwares (PS, acad, SU, PIranesi, 3Dmax and what else...) then spend days and days and days to produce one single photorealistic image??? Com'on, who really gets paied to do that? Hello??? Well, in other words, feel your clients needs an work in function of those... SU and PS still :rock on:
Of course this point is very important!
Never forget even FLW used unpaid students to draw perspectives of his projects!!! And he even made money selling books with his (so said) 'own' hand-drawings...

hmm... would we have such a constructive discussion over Riccardo's PAVILLION (http://www.pushpullbar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=759) thread if he had posted a photorealistic view of his project... don't think so. And even if we did, he wouldn't (or any other else...) have modified his image again and again... knowing how boooooooooooooooring is to do it! :D

There is a spiritual quality to more abstract drawings, and it gives you the designer more freedom to propose change as the project progresses.
You said it all! :cheers:
you must be good at darts :D

We cannot go into a meeting for a 20-million dollar corporate headquarters build-out with charcoal drawings and some laid back hippie philosophy on how it will all really look like when it's done.

:D sorry jake, just imagined your avatar in front of the meeting pointing to a charcoal drawing... !!

Agree with Michael, one client used to keep making changes and said " come on, it's just typing something on your computer...!"
Now they want realistic renderings overnight!

one client used to keep making changes and said " come on, it's just typing something on your computer...!"
Now they want realistic renderings overnight!
Where's the problem, Primo? Engage free students with full knowledge of MentalRay, Maxwell or Brazil!!! :D

Com'on, who really gets paied to do that? Hello???

I do. Not that I totally disagree with you. I use the software that best fits the level of the clients expectations. Our cost for the high-end work is included in our fees. Some clients expect it up front and we get paid for it. Our clients also expect a level of technical expertise that you get from using such technology. I am currently producing models and other marketing and technical support for a presentation to the College of Engineering National Council. All this will be shown on a VisBox.

http://www.visbox.com/

It would not be possible if I were only using Photoshop or SketchUp only. This group we are working for depend on what we are doing to raise the millions need to build the project. A Photoshop rendering would not generate 20 million dollars.

Cost of software? $3,750 for one license of AutoCAD to make black and white lines in 2d. That's excessive! I can get decent Mac, SketchUp, Piranesi, Photoshop, Maxwell, and Cheetah3D for less then one AutoCAD license and still have enough for double-shot with whip which is where I'm going now.

This is my take on the issue…

Most of the time, one can just work and render images with SU and do some post work. Most of the time an NPR image will do justice to the design even more the a photo real image – it also very dependent on the detailing level of the design at the current stage – No point in doing a true photo real image for an abstract level design.

But even so… I don't think one can limit itself just to SU output; this is not a good practice. And I really don't think that the price tags for most applications out there is that high. MAX is pricy, I know… but C4D, XSI and many more have a low price tag, and you can even use Blender for free. The new renders come in standalone form these days – still not production ready though.

I think one should find one package that works for him and offers rendering options and also animation functions so that he can learn to use it and even use its tools for further design work that SU just don't have.

cheers

I do. Not that I totally disagree with you. I use the software that best fits the level of the clients expectations. Our cost for the high-end work is included in our fees. Some clients expect it up front and we get paid for it. Our clients also expect a level of technical expertise that you get from using such technology. I am currently producing models and other marketing and technical support for a presentation to the College of Engineering National Council. All this will be shown on a VisBox.

http://www.visbox.com/

It would not be possible if I were only using Photoshop or SketchUp only. This group we are working for depend on what we are doing to raise the millions need to build the project. A Photoshop rendering would not generate 20 million dollars.

Cost of software? $3,750 for one license of AutoCAD to make black and white lines in 2d. That's excessive! I can get decent Mac, SketchUp, Piranesi, Photoshop, Maxwell, and Cheetah3D for less then one AutoCAD license and still have enough for double-shot with whip which is where I'm going now.

:wondering Hmmm... I should have said "Well, in other words, feel your clients budget and work in function of it..." instead of "Well, in other words, feel your clients needs and work in function of those..." :D Anyway, I think you got my point.

:D sorry jake, just imagined your avatar in front of the meeting pointing to a charcoal drawing... !!

Agree with Michael, one client used to keep making changes and said " come on, it's just typing something on your computer...!"
Now they want realistic renderings overnight!

That's not my real hair. My real hair is gone for the most part.:)

Realistic images are almost possible overnight now. I can produce something reasonably good with SketchUp and Cheetah3D. Richard can do it with SkecthUp and ArtlantisR.

The days of 3dStudio Max and the 2-3 week render are coming to a end soon. Software is getting to good and the people who still do it the old way are going to be in a world of hurt. For the most part, SketchUp has made this possible.

Don't get me wrong guys. I prefer to work simply. My background is in Fine Arts. I love Richard's B&W render of the Pavilion. Outstanding. I would prefer to do all my work that way, but, that's not reality.

This is my take on the issue…

Most of the time, one can just work and render images with SU and do some post work. Most of the time an NPR image will do justice to the design even more the a photo real image – it also very dependent on the detailing level of the design at the current stage – No point in doing a true photo real image for an abstract level design.

But even so… I don't think one can limit itself just to SU output; this is not a good practice. And I really don't think that the price tags for most applications out there is that high. MAX is pricy, I know… but C4D, XSI and many more have a low price tag, and you can even use Blender for free. The new renders come in standalone form these days – still not production ready though.

I think one should find one package that works for him and offers rendering options and also animation functions so that he can learn to use it and even use its tools for further design work that SU just don't have.

cheers

He's back! Damn that was long vacation.

For all those depressed not-so-good-at-renderings-architects out there, please follow Jesse's THREAD (http://www.pushpullbar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=861&highlight=world) about our fake fake world... :D

It would not be possible if I were only using Photoshop or SketchUp only. This group we are working for depend on what we are doing to raise the millions need to build the project. A Photoshop rendering would not generate 20 million dollars.

I understand now why I'm poor... :wondering :wondering :wondering
Thanks Jake for opening my eyes :not worth :not worth :not worth
:D

He's back! Damn that was long vacation.

Not long enough . . . . :bang head

There seems to be an underlying "fear of change" or "fear of techology" in this thread. Hmmm...

Why hasn't there been such an outcry from forum members regarding the thread discussing laptops to children in 3rd world countries. Why do they need such devices. Why not let them get along with sticks for drawing and stories around a fire in a grass hut for information about the world in which they live? If they start using those computers then the next thing you know they'll all be slackjawed, watching Sponge Bob and playing doom or half-life or worse yet... producing photorealistic renders.

I give up, you've convinced me. I've attached a render for the new job we are designing in Chicago. I hope you like it.

The hands represent the open office area, the center red area is reception, elevators and support. The big red guy to the right is the CEO's office. I had planned to add some buffalo to indicate circulation paths, but my stick ran out of berry juice.:)

LOL Jake!!!!!! :peace: :D

I understand now I'm poor... :wondering :wondering :wondering
Thanks Jake for opening my eyes :not worth :not worth :not worth
:D

You're not poor. Look at that cute little girl on your lap! :)

You're not poor. Look at that cute little girl on your lap! :)
Thanks mate! :cheers:
And she happens to be ONE YEAR OLD today!!! :cheers:

I suppose you could plot out the sketchup hidden line on arches and watercolor it or use the design markers that you've still got the caps on extra tight and go mike lin on it.

Neither would look as good as Jake's Office design... How did you sheet feed that in the plotter?

Maybe you should take whatever method has worth to you, there is artistry in using rendering engine's & photoshop. Why not explore and push yourself to learn a new method with each presentation.

Ryo, I love the names for parts of the structure of a house where can I find out more on that? Sorry bout the subject change had to show Ryo my little rendering. Just turned one as well!

thanks all of this info has been great. may i have seen maxwell renders and i want to know what eta form means, does this mean it has not fully bee n released??

Also there are many render programs, i just want to touch them up and give them extra zing, that don't have to be 100% realistic, we prviously had a person who could do watercolour's and presented our schemes this more graphic style i think would be better,

also with a render how does it work do you import model, export vray, not really sure, as isaid previously i have just relied on su???

ouesty

Thanks mate! :cheers:
And she happens to be ONE YEAR OLD today!!! :cheers:

Happy birthday little girl!

I just finished a school project, which of couse I used SU for modeling purpose. However, for the perspective drawings, instead of plotting out SU exports, I traced over it with vellum, then rendered it by hand, doing cross hatching. The project was to build a place for a ritual, and I thought that hand drawn look, looked a lot more... spiritual than 3D rendered look. The crit went real well, and it seemed to have worked.

Ryo, I love the names for parts of the structure of a house where can I find out more on that? Sorry bout the subject change had to show Ryo my little rendering. Just turned one as well!
I suppose in japanese books or here http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/4770019785/002-9748050-0804836?v=glance
and here
http://www.aisf.or.jp/~jaanus/deta/d/daikokubashira.htm
and the social aspect here
http://www.dawncenter.or.jp/english/publication/edawn/9711/men-they.html

bravo and happy birthday to your little marvel! :cheers:

Happy birthday little girl!
Thanks mate! :cheers:

HAPPY BIRTHDATE TO THE CUTTEST AVATAR EVER!!!!!!!!!!!:cheers: :clap:

thanks all of this info has been great. may i have seen maxwell renders and i want to know what eta form means, does this mean it has not fully bee n released??

Also there are many render programs, i just want to touch them up and give them extra zing, that don't have to be 100% realistic, we prviously had a person who could do watercolour's and presented our schemes this more graphic style i think would be better,

also with a render how does it work do you import model, export vray, not really sure, as isaid previously i have just relied on su???

ouesty
Maxwell final will be released this month! www.maxwellrender.com for more info. please order it quickly if you want this baby...
Brazil, Finalrender, Vray, Mentalray need 3dsmax or maya to render.
Artlantis R is a non-expensive and simple renderer, standalone.
POV is free and you only need the ruby export script.
Photoshop will be needed in every case (or The Gimp) I think...
Piranesi is a nonphotorealistic paint tool but I prefer Photoshop for its precision and interface (very personal but you can more easily adjust cut-outs levels and colours in PS to reach the best hue and levels balance when you do collages).

the usual 3d pipeline is:
SU => export 3ds or obj => import in 3DSmax or Maya or whatever => attribute materials and tweak 'em => choose the render plugin => render pass => re-tweaking => render pass => photoshop pass => final image :D

HAPPY BIRTHDATE TO THE CUTTEST AVATAR EVER!!!!!!!!!!!:cheers: :clap:
gracias Primo :cheers:

I suppose in japanese books or here http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/4770019785/002-9748050-0804836?v=glance
and here
http://www.aisf.or.jp/~jaanus/deta/d/daikokubashira.htm
and the social aspect here
http://www.dawncenter.or.jp/english/publication/edawn/9711/men-they.html

bravo and happy birthday to your little marvel! :cheers:


Thank you for the links and all the best to your little one, enjoy them they grow too fast...

:cheers:

I just finished a school project, which of couse I used SU for modeling purpose. However, for the perspective drawings, instead of plotting out SU exports, I traced over it with vellum, then rendered it by hand, doing cross hatching. The project was to build a place for a ritual, and I thought that hand drawn look, looked a lot more... spiritual than 3D rendered look. The crit went real well, and it seemed to have worked.
post it post it post it :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Ryo, I love the names for parts of the structure of a house where can I find out more on that? Sorry bout the subject change had to show Ryo my little rendering. Just turned one as well!
Hey Cheffey, is that Maxwell or what??:D
CONGRATULATIONS FOR YOU TOO !!

BTW mine is tuning .. 11 this weekend!! ... uff they grow soo fast...

Primo,
Have fun this weekend make sure the cake is pushpulled.

That one could be a maxwell rendering :D
Sometimes more like 3Dmax... incomprehensible, flashy & expensive... ;)

Primo,
Have fun this weekend make sure the cake is pushpulled.

That one could be a maxwell rendering :D
Sometimes more like 3Dmax... incomprehensible, flashy & expensive... ;)

Jaja, actually he doesn't want a Cake at all, (that's for kids, U know!)

I'm making burgers and downloading mp3 for the dance party!! -Green Day, American Idiot, Simple Plan, Trotsky Vengaran (local one)... he gave me the list!- no use for my Rolling or Pink Floyd CDs (what? those that look like grandpa?)
See what I mean by how they grow so fast?

Jaja, actually he doesn't want a Cake at all, (that's for kids, U know!)

I'm making burgers and downloading mp3 for the dance party!! -Green Day, American Idiot, Simple Plan, Trotsky Vengaran (local one)... he gave me the list!- no use for my Rolling or Pink Floyd CDs (what? those that look like grandpa?)
See what I mean by how they grow so fast?
'Rolling Floyd' is the next big thing (say, in 5 years, full comeback, but mixed by 15 year old DJs) :D
Actually you are avant-garde, Primo!!! :rock on:

That's classic! I see what you mean :D

'Rolling Floyd' is the next big thing (say, in 5 years, full comeback, but mixed by 15 year old DJs) :D
Actually you are avant-garde, Primo!!! :rock on:


Rolling Floyd makes me think of that stupid Danger Mouse album–'Grey'. A remix of The Beatles 'White Album' and the 'Black Album' by Jay-Z. It was all over the place receiving great reviews. Personally I thought it stunk up the place.

http://www.illegal-art.org/audio/grey.html

HA HA, I was actually thinking about SEX U2 or PINK PISTOLS !!

Once we were watching with my wife one of the Rollings first concerts, our daughter was outraged by this "long haired skinny guy" ..."do you really LIKE THAT??, hey come see what our dadys are watching..!" (she called her brother)!

We had to explain there were no designer garments that day for Rock stars...

I have been doing a little research and I can't believe all the amazing free programs out there (in spite of frenchy's efforts).

So long story short, what is the best free rendering app? Blender, Kerkythea, Povray, or one I am not aware of.

I have played with Kerkythea and while others seem to be getting good results it is a little complicated to use. Also the output seems to be a little limiting. (1280x1024 @72 DPI.) Those of you who use rendered images on large format boards: is this output large enough?

(As I looked into it a little more, it looks as though Povray is not a viable option for an architecture renderer. I am not sure but it looks like you cannot import a file, you must model through a text base interface?)

Kekythea permits to render at any size/resolution.
Just go to about--->advanced, and search for the option.

Kerkythea...never heard of this one... had a quick look see and sent a link home. Seams there are some SU tutorials .

Tom

I have to agree with ryo and others on the fact that SU / PS output does represent a good formula.

I've been pushing my practice more toward visualisation and away from the design side. When I show prospective clients the options of presentation v's cost most are settling on this combo rather than Photoreal.

The reason the cost can be kepp low is 1. the lesser level of detail required in the model and 2. the time saved in preparing and rendering the model and the extra detail required. I generally find the final images cost wise represents half that of Photoreal and the results do not.

Here is the most recent (not my design) SU / PS (two layers - 15 min.) i've produced.

I must say having just exported an image SU / Maxwell RC5 I'm feeling much more happy with my investment in the unknown at beta stage. Seems about a 5x improvement in speed has been achieved.

By the way guys it is so nice to see proud dads. At 42 I have no kids (that I know of) and had set my mind to the task of never about 20 years ago, but that said there is something truly warming to see this pride in others.

I have to agree with ryo and others on the fact that SU / PS output does represent a good formula.

I've been pushing my practice more toward visualisation and away from the design side. When I show prospective clients the options of presentation v's cost most are settling on this combo rather than Photoreal.

The reason the cost can be kepp low is 1. the lesser level of detail required in the model and 2. the time saved in preparing and rendering the model and the extra detail required. I generally find the final images cost wise represents half that of Photoreal and the results do not.

Here is the most recent (not my design) SU / PS (two layers - 15 min.) i've produced.

I must say having just exported an image SU / Maxwell RC5 I'm feeling much more happy with my investment in the unknown at beta stage. Seems about a 5x improvement in speed has been achieved.

By the way guys it is so nice to see proud dads. At 42 I have no kids (that I know of) and had set my mind to the task of never about 20 years ago, but that said there is something truly warming to see this pride in others.

A simple "I don't know" would have done the job Richard! ;)

Does or has anyone ever use/used Form Z?

Kekythea permits to render at any size/resolution.
Just go to about--->advanced, and search for the option.
Anyone try this yet? I can see why it's free.

So long story short, what is the best free rendering app? Blender, Kerkythea, Povray, or one I am not aware of.

My thoughts:

Blender seems to me the best of the three in terms of final result. I have a friend who use it and he can make awesome renderings, but it's not easy to learn. I tried it for a few hours but didn't get anything, I guess it demands more time and efforts.
Povray - couldn't get any of this one.
Kerkythea - my choice, because I don't have many time to study a program right now, and you can get a really fast rendering straight out from SketchUp, you just need to set up the sunlight and the background and that's it. But I'm using it only for exterior renderings, because I find extremely hard to positioning interior lights. We already talked a little about it and you saw some of my renderings, so you know the results are not that great.

(As I looked into it a little more, it looks as though Povray is not a viable option for an architecture renderer. I am not sure but it looks like you cannot import a file, you must model through a text base interface?)

if you check the SU forums for POVray you will find a bit there on using it... there is a pretty good Ruby exporter for linking into POV which actually works quite well really... have not played with it for almost 12 mths tho... so not sure how it would play with SUv5

cheers
Trevor

I have tried this exporter with SU4 and it works well, but it is a pain to change the names of all textures to eliminate special characters (like - ).

You must position the lights in SU and then export, so it takes some trial and error, but it comes for free...

Kerkythea permits to render at any size/resolution.
Just go to about--->advanced, and search for the option.

Anyone try this yet? I can see why it's free.

Scene Setting / Camera / Resolution (seems maxi 1280*1024 ) :rolleyes:

and works especialy for SU Users!
A ruby script is made for export Camera from SU (section download)
And a new version and a new Graphic Interface is now avaible!
Kerkythea (http://www.softlab.ece.ntua.gr/~jpanta/Graphics/Kerkythea/) the free Standalone Renderer :peace: