View Full Version : How to stop working in vane?


Omoxx
09-06-2008, 15:22
A friend of a relative gave me a call and told me he needed his house renovated.
Since I donīt have an office and it would be a freelance work, we always had appointments
in the clientīs house , more than 50 miles away.
After he told me the scope of the renovation I went back home and with the based on the
plans the client gave me started working on a proposal.
After having worked for more than a week on it, we have a showdown and he loved the proposal.
I kept on working on that, but the next contacts were thru the phone.
Unexpectedly in the last occation he told me he really loved the proposal, but he wanted to
wait until the economy recovers from this recession to go on!
I didnīt receive a single buck after more of 2 months of work1
How to avoid this in the day to day professional practice?
How should I proceed to avoid this kind of stupid results in the profession?
Thank you

cheffey
09-06-2008, 15:42
Require a deposit & get a signed contract.
Your enthusiasm is a good but in private practice you want to make sure that you are doing work on paying jobs.

Did you get a signed contract before you did the prelim design?
If so, I'd send him a bill.

pawpaw
09-06-2008, 16:02
Usually, in the beginning we do a feasibility study for our client, and mostly we don't charge them any fee.

But when it comes to design development stage, which requires more time and energy. It is the norm of the profession to ask for a Letter of Appointment.

Ideally the Letter would show the breakdown of the bill-able stage. It's crucial to show how many percentage of the total fees that you expect to have in the beginning (in the form of a deposit). The amount of which would later might be discounted from the total fees should the project continues through latter stages.

But remember, even if you don't have a Letter of Appointment yet, you need to ensure that you have a proper record on the Minutes of Meeting

And circulate it to your client-to-be. The Minutes of Meeting would be a proof that you have done your work. Shall the need arise you would have a stronger case to bill them.

Kaas
09-06-2008, 18:06
My advice would be: stop the freebees. You are giving away FOR FREE all your:
* money spend for your education
* time spend in studying
* endured stress in your first projects
* travelling costs
* material costs like books, pencils etc etc.
* time spend in thinking about this assignment
* time and gas spend travelling
* etc etc

If you are just starting as an architect it's hard to get jobs working for yourself. But, my opinion is that you should never should do freebees. Even if money is an issue have them pay something for all the time you will spend afer the first meeting. That way you will make a small living, be able to invist in books etc, and the client will learn to appreciate your efforts. Bill them after every phase and don't continue into the next one until the bill is payed.

If they give you a hard time after talking about some fee just ask them why it should be reasonable you should work for free after having spend 5+ years studying, learning etc etc. They would certainly never do it themselves!

Good luck!

Omoxx
09-06-2008, 19:09
My advice would be: stop the freebees. You are giving away FOR FREE all your:
* money spend for your education
* time spend in studying
* endured stress in your first projects
* travelling costs
* material costs like books, pencils etc etc.
* time spend in thinking about this assignment
* time and gas spend travelling
* etc etc

If you are just starting as an architect it's hard to get jobs working for yourself. But, my opinion is that you should never should do freebees. Even if money is an issue have them pay something for all the time you will spend afer the first meeting. That way you will make a small living, be able to invist in books etc, and the client will learn to appreciate your efforts. Bill them after every phase and don't continue into the next one until the bill is payed.

If they give you a hard time after talking about some fee just ask them why it should be reasonable you should work for free after having spend 5+ years studying, learning etc etc. They would certainly never do it themselves!

Good luck!

I realize I need some tutorials on this kind of Architect-Client commercial relationship!
I was not taught that in the Architecture School.
Do you people know any material: books,e-book, tutorial or videos to learn how to face that kind of professional situations?
I suppose I went through too many 3dsMax or Vray tutorials and very few "how to make $$$ as an Architect"!
Thank you

cacapis
09-06-2008, 19:38
There's really no manual that will teach you how to do it. It changes from place to place and from client to client.
Sometimes you have to do a little bit of free work in the beginning to get the client excited. You can do enough so if the project doesn't go through then you didn't work that much. For instance I would do around two days worth of work.
Eventually you'll bill the client for the work you've done in the beginning.

pfguerreiro
09-06-2008, 22:33
A friend of a relative gave me a call and told me he needed his house renovated.
Since I donīt have an office and it would be a freelance work, we always had appointments
in the clientīs house , more than 50 miles away.
After he told me the scope of the renovation I went back home and with the based on the
plans the client gave me started working on a proposal.
After having worked for more than a week on it, we have a showdown and he loved the proposal.
I kept on working on that, but the next contacts were thru the phone.
Unexpectedly in the last occation he told me he really loved the proposal, but he wanted to
wait until the economy recovers from this recession to go on!
I didnīt receive a single buck after more of 2 months of work1
How to avoid this in the day to day professional practice?
How should I proceed to avoid this kind of stupid results in the profession?
Thank you

Man.... That happened to me a couple of times, just like that. We can't be too good in these matters...
You have to bill the client for your work (includes time and expenses)... and upfront. If the guys don't want to advance to construction .... that's is problem.

And of course we end up never knowing if he carried on or not... and in case of small interior remodeling.. if he got your ideas and prev. and didn't carry out the thing himself. (this usually happens around here)...

good luck

brudgers
09-06-2008, 23:39
The only place to learn about these things is "The School of Hard Knocks."

However, it is best to audit the courses.

Require part of your fee up front.

If the client balks, then walk away.

It is admirable to provide services pro bono or ad maiorem dei gloriam to poor clients.

Providing them to the wealthy is less admirable.

tdmc
10-06-2008, 00:34
First discussion is fact fidning, establishing the brief - that's free for me.

Then set out, in writing, a fee and services offer - what you will do, how you will charge, any conditions of engagement

Ask for the offer to be signed (as in a contract)
Only when it's signed - start work

This process makes people understand you are a professional, you've given a little, but also that they need to be serious about what you can do.
If they don't sign - they maybe wouldn't have wanted to pay you - those that do sign you will have a good solid realtionship with

imasayer
10-06-2008, 00:44
Require part of your fee up front.

If the client balks, then walk away.

It is admirable to provide services pro bono or ad maiorem dei gloriam to poor clients.

Providing them to the wealthy is less admirable.

Brudgers is right on the money.

I could not agree more with the money up front comment. Clients have a bad habit of abandoning a project then thinking they can abandon your fee as well. Giving your services away for free is bad for everyone(including your peers). If you do not value your services or your clients will not either.

If you can find an exciting pro bono project by all means take it.

lewisuk
10-06-2008, 02:07
Interesting topic: the quite sensible subject of contracts is obviously coming up a lot here, but are these actually useful in reality on smaller jobs if the client defaults on these payments? Has anyone hired a lawyer or pursued a non paying client through the courts here?

BruceWalker
10-06-2008, 02:39
I'm doing some freelance work for some friends (note: friends, not "clients").

After meeting with them to get an understanding of what they wanted, I wrote up a brief and fee proposal, which they needed to sign in order for me to continue.

It was made clear in the proposal that they would be billed on a monthly basis, and a clear due date would be on the invoice. I sent them a professional invoice, not a scribbled note.

This sounds quite cold and distant, but my tone in the proposal was light, and we both entered the agreement with a full understanding of what the expectations were.

Billing monthly means you don't end up with a large unpaid sum.

tdmc
10-06-2008, 05:06
lewisuk, I have a clause in my standard conditions of engagement - "whoever signs guarantees payment". Very simple very solid, avids people saying they are acting on behalf of someone else. If someone defaults this clause is a useful trigger to let them know there's nowhere for them to go.

Bruce Walker is also on the right track - progress payments - and sometimes being tough enough to stop and do no more if payments are not made!

It's all pretty basic, but us Archies tend not to sort these things out as well as our colleagues in other professions.

Consider - if you don't get paid, you're out of work!

germde
10-06-2008, 15:43
Doing what you love sometimes makes the sting of theft, and that's what it is, less painful. We're selling ideas for the most part and not everyone values that. We will visit a prospective project or project site and answer questions for an hour or so. If the client is confident in our service and we feel good about the client, the very next step is a contract with a retainer. You'll feel better, but even better they'll feel better.

For an idea of what clients expect, have a look at this book:http://www.amazon.com/How-Work-Architect-Gerald-Morosco/dp/142360007X

brudgers
10-06-2008, 16:36
Interesting topic: the quite sensible subject of contracts is obviously coming up a lot here, but are these actually useful in reality on smaller jobs if the client defaults on these payments? Has anyone hired a lawyer or pursued a non paying client through the courts here?

Yes...of course in the US anyone can sue anyone.

Filing was very productive, I stopped worrying about the matter once I had a date certain for resolving the issue.

This allowed me to be more productive in my work.