View Full Version : Architect As God?
el-capitano
05-12-2006, 02:03
This little discussion is regarding one off houses mainly.
Assuming that a client comes to you, not because you have a particular style or reputation, such as a Seidler, Durbach & Block or Murcutt, do you work with their pre-conceived ideas and help them grow their own ideas, or do you force your own ideas of design on them.
A client of mine has come to me to do their house. They were saying their cousins have gone to an ex-work mate of mine, and he took the "I am god" approach with them, telling them they can't have this, and can't have that. You must do it my way, or you will end up with a crappy house.
My clients also met him (as he is cheap with regards to fees), didn't like him, thats why they came to me. I prefer to take their ideas, and work through them, explaining why some ideas might not work, and keeping some of their favourite points, even though I might not personally like it- eg. curved staricase.
Is this the correct way of going about things, or should I start force feeding what I consider good design on them, when they won't want it?
hmmmm........ :)
some clients are extremely stubborn too, despite what you try to explain to them, you got to draw the line somewhere
at the end of the day, you got to be happy doing what you are doing, no point bending over backwards 180 degrees for your client when you are not happy about the direction it is heading. and of course, they got to be happy too. as you know its a long process, and houses especially, clients get very personal and emotional about it.
I've never had a client, :D but I would think, that even though you may get stubborn clients who think they know it all, and really may have some bad ideas, you shouldn't take the "I am God" approach with them.
Even if your client was coming to you becaue he liked your certain style, he comes with his brief and through discussion and understanding, you give the client something that he's happy with, and that is your style.
I think in either case its important to hear what the client wants, and if they are adamant on having something that really makes no sense, it's your job as the architect to educate them as to why it make no sense, and suggest something that would be better suited, because at the end of the day, you can create a great piece of architecture for someone that you're pleased with, even though it may contain a curved staircae, which you don't like.
BrianMyers
05-12-2006, 02:59
It's both you and them working together. They need your services, it's your job to provide them with what they want and what they really need. If you can't work together then so be it... but you should try to accept each others needs, ideas, and concerns and be open with each other initially about your ideas and what you'll each provide before starting a professional relationship together.
Nick Fox
05-12-2006, 03:20
It's important to listen to what your clients are saying and of course what they want, but you have to also consider that in the end it's your name that's going to be stuck on the project not theirs. If they pull out a pile of magazines and say they want one of these and two of those and half a dozen of something else then I'd recommend that maybe a drafting company would better be meet their requirements as I don't do cut and paste designs. It costs nothing to explain what it is that architects do, though all some clients want to do is say that it's 'architect designed,' and the architect is..... you!
I have walked away from two jobs where at the end of the design process the clients changing demands virtually destroyed all of the design work we'd already done. One client in particular did not want her husband to have an office or den of his own in their new house so she insisted that there be large openings (over 2.5m wide) and half height walls in three rooms near the main entry to the house. What this meant was that they ended up with 3 totally unfunctional rooms that essentially could have no real use. In order to salvage the situation I tried to get them to reduce the size of their new house as the rooms were no longer needed, but they said no they liked it just as it was (but with more openings in the three rooms and I'm talking about 3 openings in each room). After coming to the realisation that they weren't prepared to move one mm on the matter I told them that the effect on the interior of the building was such that I felt she should find another architect. Later her husband told me that he really loved my plan but in order to keep his wife happy he'd gone along with her request. The end result is that no house was ever built on their site and I know they have since employed two other architects who have also walked away from the project.
I don't know if this is playing 'god' or not but I certainly felt a sense of relief having ended the conflict with this particular client. While it's good to say it's our job to make a client see sense, they fact is, they have to be prepared to listen to what you're saying, sadly some won't.
Good question...
What you establish with a client when you are commissioned to design a building or house is a relationship. Relationships require communication. Communication requires lots of work and understanding and listening. Its a two-way street, if one or the other isn't listening or communicating then you have problems.
A client hires an architect partly becuase they are the "expert". Though clients have opinions and ideas the architect, depending on the situation, can help the client realise those opinions and see things they never would have without the skill that the architect brings to the table. But then some clients just don't want to listen and so then you have to decide if you want to work, or deal with that kind of relationship.
Like everything in life there is a balance that should be achieved. It isn't your job to tell someone that they know nothing and they should listen and do everything you tell them to do because your the "expert". But, it isn't your job to just be a draftsperson either and just extract what they invision blindly with no thought as to how you can make it better.
So, I say all this to say that depending on your client and the relationship you have with them, your not being 'God' by giving your opinion and expertise. That is what they are paying you for. Just be respectful in how you do it and if the client you are working with is a reasonable and respectful person themselves, then things have a much better chance of working out well for them and you.
el-capitano
05-12-2006, 06:53
Good to see people thinking along the same lines as me.
I think what makes it trickier for me, is they are old family friends, so I have to tread carefully. Thankfully though, they have been (so far) receptive to my changes to their initial sketch (which looked like a McMansion project home) and they have actually understood why I've made some changes to the concept.
I have, like I said, compromised on a few things, so its not all me! The curved staircase with wrought iron decorative balustrade.........could become a really "nice" feature!! :D
Of course there's always other factors, I think the dad, a stubborn European man, has rather large say (they are a young couple), so i will have to convince him as well!
I might add some sketches to the design project area for feedback at a later stage. :cool:
archie1492
05-12-2006, 07:26
How are the Architect's fees worked into the contract to avoid disaster in these situations?
What if halfway through the project the client trashes your design and starts to tell you what he or she wants? Or what if the client keeps taking you in circles? Are "one-off" houses typically billed by the hour? Or are they a flat rate fee? If the project is a flat fee, then how does the contract protect the Architect if he decides the project is a waste of his time?
Of course I can imagine how I would word a contract for this scenario, but I'm wondering what is typically done?
A client of mine has come to me to do their house. They were saying their cousins have gone to an ex-work mate of mine, and he took the "I am god" approach with them, telling them they can't have this, and can't have that. You must do it my way, or you will end up with a crappy house.
How did your ex work mates' house look? Was it great?
This effects my opinion.
Your goal is to design a great house right? Their goal is to get a great house? Is the only difference in perception of a great house the 'style'?
At first I was taking sides with the listening, feeling architect. hmmmm. Then after reading more I was thinking 'f that'. The great houses out there don't have some dodgy curved staircase, right? (Not saying curved staircases are bad, just taking cues from you on compromises). They are employing you as the expert and you are an expert. You spend every waking breath considering this job, so its fine for them to come in with a scrap book of ideas and visual clues, but your job is to edit these and educate them. (I guess I mean you are God).
So long as you don't compromise on the functionality of the house (that is the bad God thing) I don't think you should hold back.:wondering
Although... then again... if they are a young client and this is their first time it might be worth building them the house they want and then when they come back in 10 years for the new one...
I think what makes it trickier for me, is they are old family friends, so I have to tread carefully. Thankfully though, they have been (so far) receptive to my changes to their initial sketch (which looked like a McMansion project home) and they have actually understood why I've made some changes to the concept.
the trick is to make it feel like THEY were the ones who came up with these new ideas of yours, that way they will feel you are on their team and be quite possessive about those ideas in the scheme. it's a whole artform in itself really.
remember, they did come to you for your expert advice, you are not a drafting service.
takesh h
05-12-2006, 09:26
Artform indeed.
I don't have any secret recipe to convince your clients to your scheme, but I have a story.
A guy opened his own architectural office years back. He had few projects going on, successful ones and unsuccessful ones but they are all small.
One day a young couple came to his office. They wanted to build their first house and told him they just acquired a small piece of land in downtown.
They explained to him their ideas about their house, showing many interior magazines and told him which photographs they liked. I think we can all imagine what kind of pics they showed to him, no?
The architect went to see the site. It wasn't small but tiny, 3.9m by 14.5m.
He said "hopeless", and went back to the client and told them that it is not possible to build a kind of houses they liked from magazines. Then after a while he came up with a great idea (at least he thought so) which took him months to convince the clients to build it, but eventually he did. It took so long because the idea was so idiosyncratic... rooms were all separated by an inner courtyard and consequently you had to use an umbrella to go to bathroom on rainy days. We Japanese dont wear shoes in our houses, so this means taking off and on shoes each time you go to another room. Crazy.
He was thirty three years old and his name had no meaning at that time.
Here (http://www.pushpullbar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1747) is the house. I think, it is a part of our job and responsibility to work closely with clients but not forgetting telling clients what architecture can do.
sigue2000
05-12-2006, 09:47
the trick is to make it feel like THEY were the ones who came up with these new ideas of yours, that way they will feel you are on their team and be quite possessive about those ideas in the scheme. it's a whole artform in itself really.
Every client is unique, so it's up to you to understand what the client needs as much as what he wants. Which makes the architect a psychologist as much as a designer.
I don't quite agree whith you Kevin, the client must also realise he has come to the right place and couldn't have gotten this far without the architect.
Altogether the architect/client relationship has a lot to do with trust as well as with design. Pushing a client can lead him to mistrusting you, when that happens you're in trouble. It is allways a good option to show the client reference work if you have, so he can see your design attitude at the beginning of a project. That way both parties can see if the can relate.
el-capitano
06-12-2006, 07:00
Every client is unique, so it's up to you to understand what the client needs as much as what he wants. Which makes the architect a psychologist as much as a designer..
Architect = designer, psychologist, lawyer, real estate agent, civil engineer, structural engineer, basically every type of engineer! accountant, draftsman, landscape architect, builder, shit kicker.......should i go on???? ;)
I don't quite agree whith you Kevin, the client must also realise he has come to the right place and couldn't have gotten this far without the architect.
Altogether the architect/client relationship has a lot to do with trust as well as with design. Pushing a client can lead him to mistrusting you, when that happens you're in trouble. It is allways a good option to show the client reference work if you have, so he can see your design attitude at the beginning of a project. That way both parties can see if they can relate.
Maybe we should all have a "God-meter", so our clients will know if you are a pushover or a design perfectionist, or somewhere in the middle! :D
sigue2000
06-12-2006, 08:29
Maybe we should all have a "God-meter", so our clients will know if you are a pushover or a design perfectionist, or somewhere in the middle! :D
Or read Macchiavelli :D
Muhahahahaha
Architect = designer, psychologist, lawyer, real estate agent, civil engineer, structural engineer, basically every type of engineer! accountant, draftsman, landscape architect, builder, shit kicker.......should i go on???? ;)
You may as well take a short cut and say Architect= God ;) hehe
Didn't 'the architect' in matrix2 looked like god as well...
:wondering
Whoo, so many gods around here...
;)
BruceWalker
06-12-2006, 21:12
Didn't 'the architect' in matrix2 looked like god as well...
;)
That's a good one. So what does God look like? Somehow I don't think He's an old dude with a beard.
That's a good one. So what does God look like? Somehow I don't think He's an old dude with a beard.
Naah,.. you probably can't see him from the light flood around him...
el-capitano
06-12-2006, 23:29
Well I googled "Architect" & "god", and this is one of the images that came up!!
If anyone wants to photo shop some glowing light around him, your are more than welcome!!! :D
Nick Fox
07-12-2006, 06:51
Well I googled "Architect" & "god", and this is one of the images that came up!!
If anyone wants to photo shop some glowing light around him, your are more than welcome!!! :D
I think FLW thought that god called him god. :D
el-capitano
07-12-2006, 07:08
You may as well take a short cut and say Architect= God ;) hehe
I'm trying to sound modest!! ;)
You may call me god if you like!! :P
FWIW my 2c....
I've found that as soon as you try to second guess what your clients will swallow you pass from Architect to Developer/Drafter.
You're a professional.
No matter how many magazines your clients read or lifestyle shows they watch their understanding of the capabilities and dynamics of Architecture will fall short of yours.
That's presumably why they engaged you.
However, approaching from this angle can be dangerous and must be handled carefully. I've seen many Architects where this inner confidence is replaced by arrogance and nobody wins. Not the Architect, the Architecture or the Client.
I've been most surprised when i've presented uncompromised schemes to clients I believed were 'conservative' and they've loved them.
That's when it's rewarding.
Moral of this brain-spew: back yourself in and the worst that could happen is a "no".
makeArchitecture
11-12-2006, 06:49
Architect as God...
Sure! In the 20th century Mies's Crown Hall acted as a God machine. (What does that mean? Read Jeremy Bentham's book on prison reform.) It is very instructive to think of it that way. That's how the Master did business. Students were treated like children and a lot of them brought that to their practices.
But not too many of us want to live in a prison or be treated like a child. ;-)
So what do you do?
Working with a client is more of a romance. It's a walk on a tight-rope. Many people need to be led and charmed/convinced or seduced.
That's where the seductive sketches and diagrams come in. It's a thread that is slowly revealed rather than a full-blown answer like what Mies expounded on at school.
You have to gently but firmly lead them and make them really want the project.
It's tricky stuff. It's a real skill, the art of seduction.
Cheers,
Wm
el-capitano
16-01-2007, 01:55
FWIW my 2c....
I've found that as soon as you try to second guess what your clients will swallow you pass from Architect to Developer/Drafter.
You're a professional.
No matter how many magazines your clients read or lifestyle shows they watch their understanding of the capabilities and dynamics of Architecture will fall short of yours.
That's presumably why they engaged you.
However, approaching from this angle can be dangerous and must be handled carefully. I've seen many Architects where this inner confidence is replaced by arrogance and nobody wins. Not the Architect, the Architecture or the Client.
I've been most surprised when i've presented uncompromised schemes to clients I believed were 'conservative' and they've loved them.
That's when it's rewarding.
Moral of this brain-spew: back yourself in and the worst that could happen is a "no".
But if they do give you a 'no'- do you then compromise your design to what they want, or do you do another new scheme to get another 'no'.
Do you tell them its better to find another architect and lose out on a job?
What if they really want you to do their work even though they don't like your designs!
Does the circle end? ;)
.arch vivant
21-05-2007, 22:13
I didn't have any clients, but i presume there are two types of them, ones that come with a site plan and say "i want a house" and the others that come with a interior design magazine and say "i want a house".
Self explanatory, i'd say.
You know in the end, it's life that's right and architect who's wrong.
(something flw definitely wouldn't agree on :D)
nicholas
22-05-2007, 01:27
Do you tell them its better to find another architect and lose out on a job?
Yes.
Does the circle end? ;)
No.
Being a devout atheist i believe there is always a mathmatic/geometric solution to design.
First i would establish sincerity, either through a good referall or an informal meeting this produces "a level playing field" and a "modus operandi" this helps eliminate any later hazards.
Stylistic concerns are however a pitfall. Ideally they were drawn to your style by way of a finished product or through browsing your portfolio (students take note)
Once this has been passed i would start some research and do a survey. This should be thorough especially in difficult circumstances. I believe the more information you have is directly proportional to the success in meeting the brief (pleasing the client). This would obviously involve a good site survey often paying attention to initially mundane factors. I'd list these as traffic movements, weather , insects, neighbours, services, wind direction and so on.
I think the client interview also plays a huge role in getting it spot-on (or close) first time . Ask a lot of questions take notes even record the conversations and possiby take photos of the family,workers,clients. Look at the peoples timetables and movements.
This however is a best case scenario but its something to aim for when i start out on a brief.
Hence once you are empowered with the information you become god like to a small degree. Basically its genesis on a smalller scale. The idea of a spark an "act of god" occurs.
This thread has also made me realise just how much my boss looks like the stereotypical god. He has long grey hair and a grey beard very alarming!
An architect who has experience, history and many commisiions in his wake can have zero tolerance. My boss says "no changes, thats it,, i know best, what are you talking about ?" etc. I am much more humble i think this could be an interesting thread........... now im wandering what does god's house look like isn't it just a cloud some gates and a big chair ?
Architect almighty ? This is my mental image of god's pad:
Eternayan
23-05-2007, 00:06
But if they do give you a 'no'- do you then compromise your design to what they want, or do you do another new scheme to get another 'no'.
Do you tell them its better to find another architect and lose out on a job?
What if they really want you to do their work even though they don't like your designs!
Does the circle end? ;)
Thought I haven't my own firm but I understand your day-to-day difficulties;)!
I read once in the autobiography of Frank L. Wright that "he has to refuse many projetcts because certains clients didn't accept the windows he proposed...":) Perhaps it sounds exagerated! A client is a client, some may say... All is relative and I think there are 2 or 3 world of architects: first is those who are so famous and can afford to lose some projects in order to preserve the reputation 'image, authenticity', second are those who put priority to 'respond a mission' and thus the client is the King; 3rd type are those who's pleasure are making money without care of "architecture".
Just let me give you an example: the firm where I work now has been finalist of a school competition. You may think he will border to create something new since the architecture world has evolved because of the climatic problem. Well, all he has done was to reuse his 70-80s concepts...
I think architecture is an ambitious profession which demande creativity (if not one will be eliminated), entrepreneur (if not one will face bankrupcy), and persuatif (if not no one will be seduced)...:)
The circle turns not so round as the famous architect remaind famous and the less famous, if he/she lacks an instant of courage, creativity and audacity, he/she will be eliminated quickly... No mercy...
That's what I think of our "plus beau méter" (as Piano stated)
Chris Stewart
23-05-2007, 16:42
I have trouble imagining clients who would tolerate being told what to do. I suspect that those type of people only go to star architects and they perceive their house as art more than a home. Often it would be one of several they own and it is just another possession. (i.e. -Come look at my fabulous Ando, Wright, etc..)
I don't know why anyone who is just starting out would turn down any opportunity to design but I can see why they would eventually like to specialize. Certainly it would be fun to only have clients who have seen your work and want your style.
That is the case with my current real project but even though they like my work and want something along the same line as my own house they have their own ideas, several of which I don't agree with. That does not make them wrong. It would be foolish of me if I where to think that I am always right. Usually there is no right or wrong only preference (like the winding staircase).
Certainly you have an obligation to point out any potential problems and show the clients what would work better and explain why.
What is the alternative to designing this house which you don't like the style of? Will something better happen if you don't design it? How do you envision your career progressing?
joHanneum Z
23-05-2007, 20:58
An architect is no god ( - don`t say to your clients you are "the god"), but god was "the designer and the architect".
Do architects really believe that they are superior to artists and designers ?
Because following this forum, I get the impression that some actually believe they are.
So my real question is.
Can architects live without the other two, or do they need the the other two to go forward ?
Regards
Dpiero
Mr. Smith
10-08-2008, 12:02
I think the client interview also plays a huge role in getting it spot-on (or close) first time . Ask a lot of questions take notes even record the conversations and possiby take photos of the family,workers,clients. Look at the peoples timetables and movements.
This however is a best case scenario but its something to aim for when i start out on a brief.
Hence once you are empowered with the information you become god like to a small degree. Basically its genesis on a smalller scale. The idea of a spark an "act of god" occurs.
The first thing to do is find out what the Cleint can afford, most people don´t have aclue about costs, and its a waste of time to design houses that they cant afford.....
Do not sketch anything on the first appoinment, listen to the cleients very...very closely as their requiements are often "talked arround", take some time and then on the second appointment present the Design... here the real work starts....
and dont forget that GOD written backwards spells DOG, and they are saliva lickers!!!!
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