Electronic Construction Documents

[gaffaman]

Greetings all. I'm hoping to pick your collective brains on this question.

In our office we’ve been kicking around the idea of issuing construction documents in Adobe pdf format, as well as requiring all submittals and shop drawings to be submitted in pdf as well. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this in your practice and how well does it work? Our informal poll of contractors in the area seems to indicate that the general contractors would be very open to the idea, but many of the smaller subs might not be. I’m interested in any insights or recommendations the ppb community might have. What were the unintended drawbacks or advantages? How smoothly did it work out?

Thanks to everyone ahead of time.

[ryarch]

No hard copies? My thought is, that sooner or later (the G.C. or the subs) someone will need actual drawings, won't they? Are you just postponing the printing until one level lower in the construction phase? I could use a little more info on how you intend for this to work.

We work with our consultants via PDF's all of the time. Back and forth, with notes and mark-ups all on the file. We don't make final prints even. We just digitally upload drawings to the printer and they are available for printing by whoever and whenever. We do all of our ordering on-line. We keep a disc of the submittal for record and the files are saved as TIF files by the printer. I don't think that this is uncommon at all. All the kids are doing it.

My boss hates it! He's old school, and likes to see 'what's on the boards.' He says that he likes to wander around the office and check out what is all over peoples desks that relate to the progress of a project. Digital info makes him feel blind.

Anyway, can you tell me more about how you see this working?

[lavardera]

I have thought about this, pretty extensively as a matter of fact. I like the idea, but it represents a lot of extra work to make it worthwhile. Specifically I think the value of doing this comes from hot linking drawing and specification references with the browser interface of Acrobat. Specifically you click on a detail reference and you jump to that detail in the drawing set. Similarly if you click on a material call out in a drawing you would jump to the specific spec section on that material. Right now you would have to set up all those links manually which would be a tremendous amount of work. Ultimately I think our CAD software should allow us to set up these hot links as we work and then export them to the PDF when they are created.

[gaffaman]

I guess you're right, we're driving the printing down a level from where it is traditionally. We currently upload plot files to the reproduction company for printing. We've been doing a lot of work with construction managers lately who generally have no idea how many sets they want to start with. This way they can print to their hearts content. If we issue electronic sets, say on the ftp site, members of the construction team can look all of them over and then print the ones that are relevant to their portion of the work at their own place or at a printing company. There will always have to be hard copies on the job site, but this way they (the contractors) can have as many or few as they want.

We are also interested in having the submittals and shop drawings in pdf simply to speed the review process. Make the corrections on the electronic set and return to the contractor. No stamping multiple copies and transfering notes all over the place. Also, if they are electronic, they will take up less space in the office, although being able to read them in the future could be a problem if software changes.

We also trade info with consultants electronically. I's hard to believe there was a time before we could do that....

I don't think we're too far away from the construction superintendent carrying around a tablet pc on the job site with the construction documents on it.

[msalvarez]

In our firm we have found that pdfs are really valuable in exchanging info. Its quick and easy for us that know how to do it and are used to this format.

BUT

its given sub-contractors an excuse to fail us.

"i didnt recieve it"; "our plotter is down"; "i didnt get the attachment" ; "the files was corrupted"; I just try to avoid all this by printing exaclty what they will need. Plus, I have found that some contractor we deal with want little interaction with computers as possible. (we are small residential firm, so it might just be the people we deal with)

[ryarch]

I'm with you on the future of the digital conostruction documents and specifications and their associated linking. It is coming right after we get BIM as a standard production tool. Right now, it's addative work. Work that would only open up additional confusion if all of the links and paths aren't just right. Confusion = $ spent. Soon, I hope, we will begin inserting 'blocks' and layers into our BIM's that are provided by the company that has been spec'd. Then we can have all the the clicking and connecting that would be most helpful. The insertion of the 'block' does the directing to a spec section, or a website, maybe at the printer.
I can easily see the traditional printer as a 'data warehouse or storage facility', instead of a printer. All of the files are linked directly to there.

Oh yeah, and I want my flying car.

[gaffaman]

Specifically I think the value of doing this comes from hot linking drawing and specification references with the browser interface of Acrobat. Specifically you click on a detail reference and you jump to that detail in the drawing set. Similarly if you click on a material call out in a drawing you would jump to the specific spec section on that material. Right now you would have to set up all those links manually which would be a tremendous amount of work.

That would be a lot of work, but would it be much more work than coordinating the details on a conventional set of drawings? In this scenario, the coordinating would be done on the pdf set, which would be the actual construction set. I don't know, I haven't used those features of Acrobat. Hmmm. I may have to do some experimenting. :wondering Interesting idea. At least that would be a start until the cad/bim programs coordinate them for us.

So, what about having submittals all in pdf? Does anyone see that as worthwhile?

[ReD]

That would be a lot of work, but would it be much more work than coordinating the details on a conventional set of drawings? In this scenario, the coordinating would be done on the pdf set, which would be the actual construction set. I don't know, I haven't used those features of Acrobat. Hmmm. I may have to do some experimenting. :wondering Interesting idea. At least that would be a start until the cad/bim programs coordinate them for us.

So, what about having submittals all in pdf? Does anyone see that as worthwhile?

Already do submissions for Planning Approval Submnission in PDF in UK (Yet to Try Building Control submission ) Receiving Authority has to print their end ~ saving me printing & postage & time costs & also means I can send drawings large scale instead of A3 ~ I haven't tried full colour yet but will do. Only problem I had was printing a pdf to correct scale but I have now got that sorted. DWF was a problem with local authority but that is a matter of time

Very efficient system

[gaffaman]

So, what about having submittals all in pdf? Does anyone see that as worthwhile?

I realized I should be more specific. :bang head Does anyone require shop drawings and contractors submittals to be sent to them (the designers) as pdf files instead of stacks of booklets and rolls of drawings?

[gaffaman]

Already do submissions for Planning Approval Submnission in PDF in UK (Yet to Try Building Control submission ) Receiving Authority has to print their end ~ saving me printing & postage & time costs & also means I can send drawings large scale instead of A3 ~ I haven't tried full colour yet but will do. Only problem I had was printing a pdf to correct scale but I have now got that sorted. DWF was a problem with local authority but that is a matter of time

Very efficient system

Sounds like your planning department is on board already. Maybe we can all drag everyone else into the 21st century as well.

Color construction documents could be a real benefit. Let us know how it works out with Building Control. (BTW, what exactly is Building Control? Do they do building code and life safety reviews, and how are they different from the Planning authority?)

Thanks

[ReD]

Sounds like your planning department is on board already. Maybe we can all drag everyone else into the 21st century as well.

Color construction documents could be a real benefit. Let us know how it works out with Building Control. (BTW, what exactly is Building Control? Do they do building code and life safety reviews, and how are they different from the Planning authority?)

Thanks

Currently Applies to Most of Wales & eventually the whole of the UK & Ireland
Yes Building Control = Codes

Due to me footing the bill for colour prints most of my submissions have been colour sparse but hopefully now I can start coloured drawing submissions ~ should be a big help with awkward submissions

[ReD]

Here is a link to the UK Planning Portal

You can check this out to see the process involved

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/genpub/en/1115313972463.html

[toaster_oven]

in my experience it is a very very bad idea to issue stamped drawings in PDF (electronic) format. we've had two things happen:

GC who changed drawings (got around password)
client who stole the principal's stamp and used it on a home remodeling project.

getting CAD/PDF files of shop drawings is a good idea, but it's also very important to also have a hard-copy for legal reasons.

-to

[gaffaman]

in my experience it is a very very bad idea to issue stamped drawings in PDF (electronic) format. we've had two things happen:

GC who changed drawings (got around password)
client who stole the principal's stamp and used it on a home remodeling project.

getting CAD/PDF files of shop drawings is a good idea, but it's also very important to also have a hard-copy for legal reasons.

-to

Thanks for sharing the experience. It would definitely s*ck to have your stamp released into the wild for someone else to use. :mad:

Have you experimented with electronic copies of the shop drawings? I envision it going something like this: Subcontractor/supplier sends pdf to general contractor, they print out a copy to review. They add their comments to the pdf and send it to us. We print out a copy to review and keep. We add our comments to the pdf and send it back. Alternately, we add comments and stamps to the hard copy and scan it back into pdf formant and sent that file back through the chain. It seems like that would cut down on the tedious work of marking up a bunch of copies of the same thing.

Anyone have suggestions for a file format other than pdf that could not be altered by someone else down the line? Jpeg, gif, or...?

[ReD]

Actually that brings up another Question & area of concern on the Planning Submissions

It is the aim in the UK for all drawings submitted to be viewable on line by the general public (Some Authorities already have this available) so the question I ask is how do you go about protecting your design .???
..(Assuming you want to that is)
What is the best method & how do you go about it?

[kwistenbiebel]

I use pdf-files for a lot of communication:

-to buildingpartners : pdf-planfiles (exported from vectorworks) are mailed to engineers for review. Most of the time they plot the received pdf out, write manually their remarks and then return the plans on the next meeting. Works great and saves a lot of time.

- to clients: predesigns often are presented by mail in pdf-format, followed by a quick telephone call. This also saves time (no driving around to appointments) and clients feels 'served' ad hoc. Small changes in plans are easily discussed through email-pdfs avoiding unnecessary meetings.

- word/excell : all project documents,lists of charges, estimations,...are converted to pdf. I consider pdf-mails as a good substitute for 'lóóóng' faxes.