View Full Version : 3dMax + Photoshop - interior (tutorials)
I am still looking for the right way to make good indoor renderings in 3dMax. I seem not to be able to find the right way to tweak the materials and add the sufficient light.
Therefor I am searching for a way now to adjust the renderings using Photoshop. I got 2 examples here that I will briefly explane.
I wish your oppinions about the results, and perhaps if you can give me some tips for better rendering in Max, that would be greatly appreciated.
Credits for the model go to the people inhere (http://www.pushpullbar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4134). :D
So, First example.
1. I started out with a daylight system, added some more photometric lights, and ended with the whole radiosity process. This was not satisfying as the image is too flat.
2. I then got rid of all the realistic lights and the radiosity (I saved under another project name), and just took one plain area omni light. This makes the materials look cooler and adds to the overal "volume and liveliness but there is a loss of realism.
3. I opened photoshop and then started playing:
- the radiosity render as basic layer
- the omnilight render layer with "multiply" adds the right qualities of the realistic photo to the omnilight photo
- a grayscale version of the omnilight with the layer set to "*light" and at 50% adds to shadow and depth
- then I made a clouds image with the aurora plugin and filled the windows at about 75%
*(sorry here, I got the dutch photoshop, it's "fel licht" there, if someone knows what the english word is)
Second example. Rendering is same as before.
The photoshop:
- radiosity render as basic;
- one omnilight render with "multiply" and at 50%, to give volume and reflection to the back;
- another omnilight render at 75% with a vectormask to only influence the darkness of the foreground and the ceiling
- again same system for the windows / clouds
And again, the result.
Thanks in advance for the opinions and tips.
Honestly mate, you'll be much better off picking up a copy of vray of maxwell, I find it so much easier to get high quality renders out of third party render systems than I do straight from max.
Does there exist a plugin for max-maxwell, or how do you export the max files to maxwell?
sandropc
26-08-2006, 17:19
Why don't you put the SkechtUp model and some of us can do the render in differnts renderes. I use Artlantis R and the results ar by fare better with a minimum eforce.
Well, it's just a 5 min job in Photoshop. I just like to try out these things.
But is the avarage experience with 3dMax for rendering inhere that bad? It's what they teach us at school from last year. Here are those results. (http://www.stijncreten.be/3d/3d003.html)
Though I have noticed that you have to put a lot of effort in it. But yet compared to Maxwell it's faster, no? I have read some things about Maxwell, and the avarage rendering time seems longer than that to be able to make some good renderings in 1 day.
spadestick
27-08-2006, 12:54
yes, the price of V-ray is a small portion of what you pay for for Max and well worth the price. The ideal combo is Viz/V-ray. Max is a full-blown piece of software meaning full blown price as well.
So, I tried Vray today, and I must say that it's quite a pleasure to work with it, though I await more experience before fully judging the renderer.
Next images are camera's like above, and there is no comparing...
Tried a little structure with the carpet, and some curtains in the back.
And this one's quite cool, just for the table glass.. :D
SO, dispite the fact that Vray is indeed a wonderful rendering tool, I still keep looking for ways to after-manipulate the renderings in an easy way.
For example: I had this one rendering (in the attachemnt on the left), which was done with Vray and only the environment override light of Vray. It was a very dark result.
The second rendering was done with an added plane Vray light. Good foreground, but too intense around the window in the back.
My solution > Take the second rendering (or the one in the middle in the attached image) as the background image, and the first one as the foreground image. Now just change the blend mode of the foreground image to difference, and you get a neat result.
It's a nice method... usefull for some stuff! Thanks for the tips
The middle one may be washed out, but it is the most realistic.
alecperkins
26-12-2006, 03:44
Interesting approach. I had never considered rendering multiple "exposures" of a scene and then combining them. This looks like a nice way to make HDR images (using the HDR feature in Photoshop) if you don't have a renderer that supports them.
Nick Fox
26-12-2006, 11:41
Honestly mate, you'll be much better off picking up a copy of vray of maxwell, I find it so much easier to get high quality renders out of third party render systems than I do straight from max.
You are just about 100% wrong in what you're giving as advice here. Like all renderers, they require time to come to terms with what they can and cannot do. Personally I think that the renderings show a lack of understanding of how to apply materials, set up lighting in order to get a realistic resust - it's got nothing to do with the program and everything to do with experience. Vray is not a magic bullet to solve this problem and I'm sure that neither is Maxwell (I've never used it but would be surprised if you can produce a realistic result first up). the mental ray renderer is not the easiest tool to use but it is more than capable of producing results as good as if not better than the other two. In the end it's a matter of what flavour renderer you want to use. With this situation I'd be test rendering in native 3ds using the radiosity settings but maybe that requires a bit of experimenting to get right.
You are just about 100% wrong in what you're giving as advice here. Like all renderers, they require time to come to terms with what they can and cannot do. Personally I think that the renderings show a lack of understanding of how to apply materials, set up lighting in order to get a realistic resust - it's got nothing to do with the program and everything to do with experience. Vray is not a magic bullet to solve this problem and I'm sure that neither is Maxwell (I've never used it but would be surprised if you can produce a realistic result first up). the mental ray renderer is not the easiest tool to use but it is more than capable of producing results as good as if not better than the other two. In the end it's a matter of what flavour renderer you want to use. With this situation I'd be test rendering in native 3ds using the radiosity settings but maybe that requires a bit of experimenting to get right.
i don't really agree with what u say. Yes u need time to understand how to use the programe but his way of doing things is also good. ok is not really 100% realistic but its fair enough no? and it give the impression what he wants to say no?
and for me personally i getting really bored to see only realistic renders there is no artisic view anymore (hm there still some poeple who does). anyway thats another discussion :)
Nick Fox
28-12-2006, 00:49
This is a preliminary rendering with the mental ray renderer that comes with 3ds max - I think it's not too bad for something that's easily dismissed as not being capable of doing the job and I think shows that you don't need to consider buying Vray or Maxwell. I've changed the material on the floor, added glass to the windows and used mental ray materials for the chrome and glass. I've only applied materials to a handful of objects in the scene and it will take a little time to work through the model and fix it up.
Nick Fox
28-12-2006, 02:21
Modification to the curtain to make it look a bit more realistic. The plant needs to be replaced as it looks too artificial and will always detract from the realism of the scene. This is about as far as I'm going to take this image but I think you get the general idea - patience and time spent on the renderer and modelling can give you better results.
That certainly looks good. But I'm still missing the extra touch you get by using Vray...
Nick Fox
28-12-2006, 13:33
That certainly looks good. But I'm still missing the extra touch you get by using Vray...
Well the model is pretty crappy and you Vray guys always recon there is the 'extra touch' you get with the program, but I don't see it in these renderings. The lighting in the original scene is very badly set up - this is essentially a daylight scene and that's something Vray is excellent at reproducing, but I don't see it being used effectively in your renderings.
Nick Fox
29-12-2006, 08:15
Final rendering or as far as I have time to go.
Ah, that's looking more like it. How long did you take to make everything (materials, lighting, rendering). And could it also be possible to share some of the adjustments?
Nick Fox
29-12-2006, 12:23
Everything is pretty much out of the box 3ds though the setup is a bit too complicated to write out. If I can get the file into 32 bit forrmat I'll email it to you.
It's basically a combination of Architectural & Design materials (so the mental ray renderer was used) and 3 Target Direct lights (you could probably use fewer) with different intensities lighting specific parts of the glass wall. The highest intensity light was in the centre of the building (perhaps a bit too strong), the next intense shone on the curtains and the last light was trained on the bedroom endo of the building and had the lowest intensity. The background was excluded from lighting and shadow casting and was made using an extruded curve onto which one of the 3ds scene images was mapped. The lights were aimed from left to right as you can see.
The materials side took about 15 minutes, lights a few minutes and lots of test renderings to get the look I was after. I actually spent longer repairing the model than I did setting everything else up and those crazy mesh names and missing glass were a real pain.
Just a very quick multilight Maxwell render, spent 5 minutes improving the model and 10 minutes texturing. Render time was under an hour. I might redo the render later with some more details as I'm not happy with it at all.
The textures are just what I had on my hdd, some are from the maxwell website and some are from my own collection.
And a quick night render, if I do the render again I'll add some more lights.
Nick Fox
30-12-2006, 02:40
More realistic furniture added to the scene - Barcelona chairs, seats, Breuer chair and daylounge.
ok - so i used vray - one direct light on 6 multiplier and excluded the windows(illumination only). Glass material has 'affect shadow' on. Used GI with primary bounces 'irradiance map' and secondary used 'light cache' - both with low settings. Then just a bit of color correction in post (photoshop). ;) (i think i left the shadow bias a bit harsh - just play with it on the direct light - shadow used were vray shadows)
and here is the file if anyone wants it (trees excluded)
I actually spent longer repairing the model than I did setting everything else up and those crazy mesh names and missing glass were a real pain.
not quite sure what u spent so much time repairing :S and the "missing" glass panels are solved by a simple application of the shell modifier. And that 'extra touch' you referred to - that comes with practice - a hell of alot of practice. And i dont see it in your mental ray renders either so please refrain form such cynicism
Nick Fox
31-12-2006, 01:02
not quite sure what u spent so much time repairing :S and the "missing" glass panels are solved by a simple application of the shell modifier. And that 'extra touch' you referred to - that comes with practice - a hell of alot of practice. And i dont see it in your mental ray renders either so please refrain form such cynicism
The Shell modifier won't fill in the spaces where glass should be; but as there is nothing there in the model I have (apart from space) that's not possible - it could have been removed at some stage. The model itself is not well made or finished and that's just a fact, and having used 3ds (3D Studio in those days) since it was released, I think I know a good model when I see one. If you'd like a list of the models faults I'd be quite happy to list them for you but as you already seem to have it, I'd suggest you start by looking at the naming convention (or lack thereof) for a start. It could be that the model was imported into 3ds but my impression was that it was created using that program in which case the original modeller has a way to go.
I didn't claim that the mental ray renderings I did had that 'special touch' so I think you're reading something into this that's not there. I've exchanged emails with the person who started this thread and he's interested in improving his renderings and using this scene as a reference; but if the modelling doesn't look right, nothing will look right in the rendering. I don't think there was any cynicism in what I said; it was a statement of fact rather than anything else but you can read what you want into it for all I care.
Nick Fox
31-12-2006, 01:08
Just a very quick multilight Maxwell render, spent 5 minutes improving the model and 10 minutes texturing. Render time was under an hour. I might redo the render later with some more details as I'm not happy with it at all.
The textures are just what I had on my hdd, some are from the maxwell website and some are from my own collection.
If you applied a bump map to the parquetry floor it might lift it up a little - it looks a little flat at present to maybe a bit more gloss could also be added?
Nick Fox
31-12-2006, 01:16
SO, dispite the fact that Vray is indeed a wonderful rendering tool, I still keep looking for ways to after-manipulate the renderings in an easy way.
For example: I had this one rendering (in the attachemnt on the left), which was done with Vray and only the environment override light of Vray. It was a very dark result.
The second rendering was done with an added plane Vray light. Good foreground, but too intense around the window in the back.
My solution > Take the second rendering (or the one in the middle in the attached image) as the background image, and the first one as the foreground image. Now just change the blend mode of the foreground image to difference, and you get a neat result.
Nice effect :rock on: Have you tried this effect with a sphere or background behind the glass? It would be interesting to see what the result is as the only problem I can see with the image is that the glass looks a little grey though that's not really a bit problem with selections in Photoshop. You could also try combining them as an HDR image, which should also be a worthwhile exercise.
If you applied a bump map to the parquetry floor it might lift it up a little - it looks a little flat at present to maybe a bit more gloss could also be added?
I noticed that as well, at first I thought it was just a weak setting, but when you look at the night render you can see absolutely no bump at all, so I have a feeling I loaded the wrong mxm file.
I think you need to do the opposite and lower the intensity of the bump map on the floor in your latest rendering. Also is the new chair you added looks like its floating or something?
Zebedak your render is looking pretty good, but I think you need to lower the reflectivity of the windows a little.
The model isn't bad, it just lacks a lot of details such as the cupboards behind the painting.
Nick Fox
31-12-2006, 05:32
The effect of the chrome against a white carpet does make the chair look like it's floating but in reality it's just below the pile in the carpet. Here's the room with a different table & chairs setting I modelled some time ago. The original house model isn't all bad but it's really hard to tell what's what when they all start with the same name and they are all (from memory) mesh objects, and the chairs around the table are not joined but in 3 pieces and the barcelona chairs in a lot more rather than being grouped.
I've changed the lens on the cameras so that they reflect what's actually available to photographers and this, in my opinion, gives a less distorted view of the interior - I'm not a fan of lenses less that 18/20 degrees. I know the map on the floor is the wrong size but I've no reference image of the interior. From my experience though, these floors tend to be irregular when hit by side light. I doubt that it's as smooth as a billiard table but what the hell I can live with that. :cheers: BTW, the table is in the shadow cast by the curtain, which is why there are no caustics around the glasses.
kleinjakob
31-12-2006, 12:17
The Shell modifier won't fill in the spaces where glass should be; but as there is nothing there in the model I have (apart from space) that's not possible - it could have been removed at some stage. The model itself is not well made or finished and that's just a fact, and having used 3ds (3D Studio in those days) since it was released, I think I know a good model when I see one. If you'd like a list of the models faults I'd be quite happy to list them for you but as you already seem to have it, I'd suggest you start by looking at the naming convention (or lack thereof) for a start. It could be that the model was imported into 3ds but my impression was that it was created using that program in which case the original modeller has a way to go.
I didn't claim that the mental ray renderings I did had that 'special touch' so I think you're reading something into this that's not there. I've exchanged emails with the person who started this thread and he's interested in improving his renderings and using this scene as a reference; but if the modelling doesn't look right, nothing will look right in the rendering. I don't think there was any cynicism in what I said; it was a statement of fact rather than anything else but you can read what you want into it for all I care.
I have to agree, I converted the .skp myself to .3ds and I used zebedak's vray .max, and I have given it up. I think to get this file fixed to work fine with max it would take as long as rebuilding it.
As the .skp wasn't intended to be converted into .3ds it is really hard to clean it up, I would do a complete rebuild in .skp (always keeping the .3ds export as a thought) or better, directly in 3ds max. Since it is a very "geometrically" shaped building it wouldn't be that hard even for max-beginners.
I would also suggest Stijn to use a cleaner model for his experiments.
Jakob
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