Rendering for Noobs...

[Mark Timms]

Being a complete render virgin i just wondered whether we could tap into the wealth of knowledge and experience in PPB2....

Explanation of things like what are 'bump maps'. They just look like B&W images to me. How do they work and what do they do?

'HDR' is another. Jake kindly posted a couple of links http://www.pushpullbar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270&page=2&pp=10

I would also welcome a thread to explain the pros and cons of the most popular renderers...eg

Maxwell: photographic results...poor GUI and long render times...
Artlantis: Simple GUI, quick renders, low cost etc etc

AND maybe some info on the best setups for these programs

Is this just me, what does everyone else think? :wondering

[MICHEL]

I'm with you Mark. Render newbies need some 'basic' questions to be answered. :D

[Burkhard]

It's the same with me. I'm searching for these terms and only found some mathematic explanations.
The only way is to look in the forums like big puzzles and try out what to do.

But it's often my language barrier to understand...and this kind of :craqueur:
comunication.

Burkhard :P

[jparchitectus]

I'm with you Mark. Render newbies need some 'basic' questions to be answered. :D


All aboard the newbie train - I just purchased a ticket :cheers:

[cobberman]

All aboard the newbie train - I just purchased a ticket :cheers:

How much are the tickets? :wondering

[trogers]

Explanation of things like what are 'bump maps'. They just look like B&W images to me. How do they work and what do they do?

Bump maps in most rendering programs are greyscale because that is all the information that the renderer will pull from the image. You can use colored images, but a high contrast black and white image will help out more. The more the tonal contrast, the more the material will appear to have relief. Bricks will have texture, and the mortar between units will appear set back, even though you've applied it to a flat plane. Many programs utilize this in other avenues. Opacity mapping is the same: what is black is transparent, white is opaque, and shades of grey is a shade of translucency. Specular mapping (the sheen on edges and surfaces, typically found on glossier objects), reflections, refractions, etc. all work in this same way, if you choose to utilize the raster method of producing richness in texture. The alternative method is procedural (mathematically randomly produced by the cpu with a little guidance from the user).

I'm willing to answer as many questions as y'all may have. I'm sure there are others that may do the same!

tr

[ajwtaylor]

right.......I have one.....

How do you apply bump maps and such like in programmes like say Artlantis?

If you have taken you texture map in from SU and want to add a bump map to it, how would I go about this?

I know there are bump settings? But i assume there is more to it than simply moving the slider bar up and down?

How can you apply a bump map and a texture map? for example......

:cheers:


Andrew

[jake]

I'd be glad to do a comparison of the renderers I use. Let's come up with a list of features and I'm sure Richard could elaborate on ArtlantisR (hope you don't mind Richard), I can do Cheetah3D and Piranesi, Ronen could discuss Maxwell and the countless others he uses. Probably need Max, Maya Lightwave, Strata, Bryce, Carrara, FormZ, Maya, C4D and some of the free guys Kerkythea, Vray, Blender. There are a handful others like Silo, but the list could go on forever.

Ronen, as moderator, would you like to put together a list of features that need elaboration?

Ajwtaylor

A bump is usually a b&w of your texture map. The highs and lows are defined by the dark and light areas in your bump version. You can adjust the effect in the renderer. The texture and bumps are set separately. You could use the nice leather texture that Ronen posted in the materials forum as bump for a subtle texture. You could also us it as a displacement map which acts like a bump map, but actually affects the mesh of the model when you need an irregular edge for a more realistic look.

Here's a good example of a displacement map just posted at the Cheetah forum. Look at the edges of the sword.

http://cheetah3d.de/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=226

Here's bump explained.

http://www.3dtotal.com/team/Tutorials/leafproject/leaf_5.asp

[cobberman]

Perhaps a sticky under each rendering program in the Renderer's Section explaining its benefits, abilities, pricing, and contact information. Another idea would be to have a closed "gallery" of exemplary renders using the software under its respective link in the renderer's section. (with the render time listed)

While I know that this isnt a rendering specific forum, this information would be useful in finding new software.

[Mark Timms]

Perhaps a sticky under each rendering program in the Renderer's Section explaining its benefits, abilities, pricing, and contact information. Another idea would be to have a closed "gallery" of exemplary renders using the software under its respective link in the renderer's section. (with the render time listed)

While I know that this isnt a rendering specific forum, this information would be useful in finding new software.

Mate, I like your thinking!!

Thanks everyone...i've been keeping quite recently, thinking it was just me who had no IDEA......I@M NOT ALONE :o

[{erik}]

Has anyone posted on creating transparency maps in photoshop or elsewhere?

How do I assign the material as a transparency opposed to just a black and white image map?

Sketchup is not capable of bump maps, is it?

[wegofaster]

ive been thinking about doing some renders, never had an idea how, this could definately help me get started, thanks

[cobberman]

Maybe some of the render kings could put together simple/sample tutorials. One a month or so going over a single feature of their chosen rendering program for us to follow. If so my sugesstions would be all of us to use the same base model, that way we can help each other out, and compare render styles/techniques. Like.. "what were your lighting settings to get that quality...." then you could easily make the changes and see the results.

[cobberman]

bump maps are black and white, but are they just the b&w of the image you place there? I was wondering becaseu bakbek just posted some gravel ones and the images arent the same.

Major Render Noob :confused:

[bakbek]

Perhaps a sticky under each rendering program in the Renderer's Section explaining its benefits, abilities, pricing, and contact information. Another idea would be to have a closed "gallery" of exemplary renders using the software under its respective link in the renderer's section. (with the render time listed)

While I know that this isnt a rendering specific forum, this information would be useful in finding new software.

The maxwell section has this sticky you refer to, and I'm working on the VRay version. Jake - Maybe you can handle Cheetah & Piranesi. With Artlantis I'll need more time to test before I can write something, maybe SWANK-E or Richard can help here.

No need to worry about the formatting of the information… I'll take care of that ones the info is up

[bakbek]

bump maps are black and white, but are they just the b&w of the image you place there? I was wondering becaseu bakbek just posted some gravel ones and the images arent the same.

Major Render Noob :confused:

The bump map function as a quasi height map for the surface deformation (not height change is actually perform, just taken into account in regards of light calculation). Generally you will use a BW image for this. The pure Black color is 0 Height. The pure White color is Maximum Height.
If you use a color image for the Bump, then as far as I remember each pixel averages out to a value from 0 to 255.

Now, all you do in the application material editor is set the actual bump map for a material and the amount of Maximum bump (in percents mostly)

Bump mapping has not effect in areas of no direct light with low quality of GI or no GI whatsoever… if it does then it could be very weak. All this is because the actual geometry of the mapped surface is still FLAT! This technique can recreate the effect but with low poly cost.

When you need this effect to work at all lighting conditions with importance of surface edge visibly (such as the water line on a pool side wall) then Displacement is a better option but it is time consuming. You still use the same map (or a better one) to actually change the surface geometry by adding polys ON THE FLY (in render time) or in the actual modeling faze.

Hope this short thing helps…

[Richard]

A picture paints a thousand words.

Thanks to Trogers, Jake and Ronen we now understand how they work. So I'll try to by example show how one works with bump maps in a more in a more advanced way to give an idea of how they can be used to effect.

I posted an image of a sofa pad to PPB1. This pad was modelled simply in SU and rendered in Artlantis R.

[Richard]

The main Bump Map that created the larger creases and stitching was created in Photoshop and applied as a texture in SU.

The model was then exported to Artlantis R. The texture was then given a negative bump value which in effect provided relief to the stitches and creases. The texture was then made transparent, which leaves the inprint but no image.

[Richard]

As Artlantis supports the application of more than one texture to a surface I then added a leather grain bump map. Again negative bump was applied and the texture set transparent.

(this image is from sketchup for example only and does not therefore show the accummulative effects that you would see within Artlantis).

[Richard]

Then a texture was added this time opaque (this on is actually a rock texture funnily enough) to add the mottled colouring to the leather.

Finally this was set with a low level of reflectivity and some diffusion to provide some sheen to the leather.

So you can see from this example that bump maps as Ronen suggested can provide a certain or minor level of relief to the surface without the need for additional poly lines within the model.

Cheers, Richard

[kwistenbiebel]

Thanx Richard for the useful tutorial....
It seems you can use multiple bump maps with Artlantis.

As far as i know Maxwell will only let you use one bump map...or am i mistaken Ronen?...maybe the 'texture displacement' that was promised on maxwell will make more complex bumping possible.

Verrrry nice cushion, like it a lot.

[deesee]

As far as i know Maxwell will only let you use one bump map...or am i mistaken Ronen?...maybe the 'texture displacement' that was promised on maxwell will make more complex bumping possible.



Hello all, new to PP, but saw this thread and thought I'd chime in. You're right about Maxwell not supporting more than one bump map. Most times you don't need that, but its always nice to have that capability.

Looking forward to being a member of this forum!!

[bakbek]

For this kind of bump, doing it in photoshop - with a layer for each bump, setting up each ones effect can do the trick. saving it out as one map. it's not as easy but can work with some tweaks.

[Ratty]

Hi,

I have been looking into programs for producing renders for our practice, and in the end we bought Maxwell. Even though it has faults the final images can be simply breath taking!

I found the plug-in for Sketch-up hard to get my head around but it is starting to become easier as I learn more! I don’t think I can do bump-mapping using this method using the plug-in, but if some one could set up a tutorial to show me how I would be very grateful.

To solve the render times we have ordered a new PC as a standalone Render Machine so the guys in the office are not hanging around or leave having the machines running overnight. It does appear that the best method for producing a great render is using 3D MAX and Maxwell. We are thinking of use Sketch-up to produce the main model and then buying 3DMax and Maxwell for the standalone to finish off the final image. It just seem so excessive to me there must be an easier way (less expensive way)??

I did find Artlantis the easiest to use and the cheapest, the renders were good but we felt that Maxwell images looked fantastic.

Ratty

[bakbek]

Why not try matadorlight... it's not 3dsmax, but can do the job for most still images... and one can build a material library inside for quick use.

[{erik}]

With all the discussion of bump maps I don't think the capabilities of Sketchup with respect to bump mapping have been discussed. It is my understanding that this is not an option presently. I think so far the max for mapping is transparency.

That makes me think can sketchup render with alpha channels?

[primocordara]

Veery usefull thread, I am just geting started with Artlantis and you guys just saved me hours of experimenting!

[ajwtaylor]

Right, I think I am beginning to understand the whole bump map thing, however I am now having trouble getting my bump map and texture to align correctly in Artlantis R......anybody got any hints on the best way to go?

Thanks loads

Andrew

[cacapis]

as long as the bump map and the texture images are the same size they should be aligned automatically.

[jake]

as long as the bump map and the texture images are the same size they should be aligned automatically.


As long as he has them both mapped the same, ie. planar, cubic, etc.