View Full Version : ARE timing & IDP
Just was notified of this from a fellow co-worker, who is registered... But apparently, in the US at least, that the AIA is pushing for parts of the ARE to be taken while an architectural intern is collecting IDP points. Try this link HERE (http://www.aia.org/adv_st_are) for more and for contact in support of this action...
and some basic definitions for you non-Americans...
ARE = Architecture Registration Exam
IDP = Intern Development Program
Thanks for the update
I've gotta take the ARE - only i've been avoiding it like th plague!
Ypnos
toaster_oven
17-05-2006, 20:07
this makes so much sense. How else can an intern assess where they are at in their professional development during the IDP process? filling out hours and sending it to NCARB doesn't really show that the Intern is actually learning anything. I'd use the ARE as a way to make sure I'm getting the right kind of experience - something to go back to the principal and say "i need to learn more about this" - otherwise I feel like I'm just wasting my time.
-to
this makes so much sense. How else can an intern assess where they are at in their professional development during the IDP process? filling out hours and sending it to NCARB doesn't really show that the Intern is actually learning anything. I'd use the ARE as a way to make sure I'm getting the right kind of experience - something to go back to the principal and say "i need to learn more about this" - otherwise I feel like I'm just wasting my time.
-to
Not only that toast but there are several of the sections that most students coming out of school should have no problems passing, and have the knowledge to do so. Why make you wait 3-4 years to then start with it? I know this has been talked about but something is finally being considered... but remember that our reps need to know that we are for this and so do go through the process of emailing them to voice your opinions.
this makes so much sense. How else can an intern assess where they are at in their professional development during the IDP process? filling out hours and sending it to NCARB doesn't really show that the Intern is actually learning anything. I'd use the ARE as a way to make sure I'm getting the right kind of experience - something to go back to the principal and say "i need to learn more about this" - otherwise I feel like I'm just wasting my time.
-to
That's one expensive way to say "I need to learn more about this"...my firm will pay for an ARE test only if you pass it...
Also, I'm not so sure that one test is the end all for being a gauge for their "professional development"...their should be multiple cues to good and bad development.
imasayer
17-05-2006, 22:48
this makes so much sense. How else can an intern assess where they are at in their professional development during the IDP process? filling out hours and sending it to NCARB doesn't really show that the Intern is actually learning anything. I'd use the ARE as a way to make sure I'm getting the right kind of experience - something to go back to the principal and say "i need to learn more about this" - otherwise I feel like I'm just wasting my time.
-to
I don't believe that the ARE is there to measure ability. It just isn't a good measuring stick of the broad knowledge required in our chosen field. I think it is just another obstacle set in place to limit competition for licenced architects. I sure it does weed out some idiots, but that isn't its purpose.
I plan to go through this process, but I can't help but resent it.
I don't believe that the ARE is there to measure ability. It just isn't a good measuring stick of the broad knowledge required in our chosen field. I think it is just another obstacle set in place to limit competition for licenced architects. I sure it does weed out some idiots, but that isn't its purpose.
I plan to go through this process, but I can't help but resent it.
good point imasayer... and also Ryarch... luckily my firm will pay for my tests as well (if I pass)... so that does lighten the financial burden a bit... I just think that if they do allow for some of the testing to be done while you are getting your experience it will help the process be much... nicer?! so it isn't as much of a resented process (cuz I am with you on that one imasayer... )
With the rolling clock of 5 years to finishing the ARE I'm not sure it is a good idea to start taking the exams during IDP.
I feel that IDP sounds great in theory, but ends up a bureaucratic nightmare.
Think about how much money is generated with this IDP process, and has it really helped the profession?
:confused:
Think about how much money is generated with this IDP process, and has it really helped the profession?
:confused:
Yes it does and we're already familiar with the process: much like high school or collegiate graduation, where you have to have a certain allotent of science, math, language, etc. before you can receive your degree. Should we just let anyone test out of anything and forgo the time necessary to gain the experience?
I think the IDP is great as a gauge for minimum learning experience, but it only goes as far as you or your supervisor/mentor makes it go. Ultimately, it is reliant on the people closest to you to help with the testing process. Its all about who you surround yourself with as to who you become.
Andrew B
18-05-2006, 00:31
Some programs, like the one I plan on attending, roll the IDP into the school curriculum. All in the program are given IDP hours based upon their completion of certain criteria. One would typically start as an office assistant and have to work their way up to designer or job captain in order to complete the program. My only issue with this is that it will cost me 16 hours a day for the next 3 years.
Some programs, like the one I plan on attending, roll the IDP into the school curriculum. All in the program are given IDP hours based upon their completion of certain criteria. One would typically start as an office assistant and have to work their way up to designer or job captain in order to complete the program. My only issue with this is that it will cost me 16 hours a day for the next 3 years.
Thats all? 16 hours? hell I am doing 20 right now :)
Yes it does and we're already familiar with the process: much like high school or collegiate graduation, where you have to have a certain allotent of science, math, language, etc. before you can receive your degree. Should we just let anyone test out of anything and forgo the time necessary to gain the experience?
I think the IDP is great as a gauge for minimum learning experience, but it only goes as far as you or your supervisor/mentor makes it go. Ultimately, it is reliant on the people closest to you to help with the testing process. Its all about who you surround yourself with as to who you become.
tr-
I hear you, but remember that architecture existed long before the profession. How long has IDP been around? 10-12 years? I bet your mentor didn't have to go through the today's IDP process. You must only cook with a recipe :P
I'm not saying you shouldn't have a mentor. I'm saying let's cut the red tape.
:cool:
ok, i know this is an issue concerning the USA, but can someone please give an explanation of the lingo? ARE? IDP? maybe wizum you could edit the first post and give a brief explanation of what ARE and IDP stands for.
(i think ARE stands for Architect Registration Exam?)
ok, i know this is an issue concerning the USA, but can someone please give an explanation of the lingo? ARE? IDP? maybe wizum you could edit the first post and give a brief explanation of what ARE and IDP stands for.
(i think ARE stands for Architect Registration Exam?)
Swank-E
You are right about ARE.
Architect Registration Examination (ARE)
Intern Development Program (IDP)
you can go to http://www.ncarb.org/ for more info...
Andrew B
18-05-2006, 03:03
Yes, you are correct about the ARE, and IDP is an intern development program in which a potential architect is required to work 5400 hours, or at least in MA, under a supervising architect or engineer in varying capacities.
Hmm... I've been through the IDP and ARE process. Fortunately I live in one of those states that allowed me to test after I had begun IDP. Frankly both IDP (not through NCARB though) and ARE are important. It verifies that you have a certain minimum ability to protect the life and safety of those that you are designing buildings for. lets face it. The exams and the process are laborius but, both guarantee that any schmoo can't practice architecture and start slapping up buildings because he read Fountainhead. If you really want to have a discussion about money making schemes talk about the elimination of the 5 year programs, the lobbying of NAAB by University systems to do so and up the credit requirements of the M.Arch. This makes the schools more money and doesn't really have anything to do with better education. The need to even have a Masters Degree! Frankly I don't know how this profession has become so pompous to require 6 years of education. It wasn't too long ago you didn't need any! Those of you that are still in school will learn very quickly you can throw most of what you've learned out the window after you begin working. What about the whole broken NCARB process? I did IDP through my state board and it cost me $68.00. Compare that to the NCARB costs and you may throw-up.
Andrew B
18-05-2006, 03:24
Hmm... I've been through the IDP and ARE process. Fortunately I live in one of those states that allowed me to test after I had begun IDP. Frankly both IDP (not through NCARB though) and ARE are important. It verifies that you have a certain minimum ability to protect the life and safety of those that you are designing buildings for. lets face it. The exams and the process are laborius but, both guarantee that any schmoo can't practice architecture and start slapping up buildings because he read Fountainhead. If you really want to have a discussion about money making schemes talk about the elimination of the 5 year programs, the lobbying of NAAB by University systems to do so and up the credit requirements of the M.Arch. This makes the schools more money and doesn't really have anything to do with better education. The need to even have a Masters Degree! Frankly I don't know how this profession has become so pompous to require 6 years of education. It wasn't too long ago you didn't need any! Those of you that are still in school will learn very quickly you can throw most of what you've learned out the window after you begin working. What about the whole broken NCARB process? I did IDP through my state board and it cost me $68.00. Compare that to the NCARB costs and you may throw-up.
Indeed, school is just the beginning. Maybe this is why some states, including vermont, will allow those with 9 years exp to sit for registration without any formal education.
lets face it. The exams and the process are laborius but, both guarantee that any schmoo can't practice architecture and start slapping up buildings because he read Fountainhead.
Thats kinda funny Brian becuase in Georgia you basically can, on the residential side of things anyhow... and any building for small commercial use, one level, and no more than 50 feet in depth... gotta love the redneck codes we adopt here... I won't get started :)
anyhow, sorry for not explaining the acronims Kevin... a foolish American slip :D
Yes ARE is the Architecture Registration Exam... IDP stands for Intern Development Program... I will update the first post for the "not-in-the-know" folks...
Indeed, school is just the beginning. Maybe this is why some states, including vermont, will allow those with 9 years exp to sit for registration without any formal education.
Wisconsin is the same way. I gurantee these loopholes won't survive the next decade. The pressure is coming from NCARB, which is getting pressure for the NAAB, which is getting pressure from the university system.
Andrew B
18-05-2006, 04:33
Too bad, as I have learned much more in the field than school ever taught me.
imasayer
18-05-2006, 16:50
Too bad, as I have learned much more in the field than school ever taught me.
I agree that there is much to learn in the field. I didn't learn that much about building in school. School for me was invaluable however. This is where I learned to see, and to think critically about me and the world around me. This is where I learned about the social and environmental impacts of architecture. These things are more important in the broader scope of architecture, and the mark that I will make over the course of my career.
I agree that there is much to learn in the field. I didn't learn that much about building in school. School for me was invaluable however. This is where I learned to see, and to think critically about me and the world around me. This is where I learned about the social and environmental impacts of architecture. These things are more important in the broader scope of architecture, and the mark that I will make over the course of my career.
I agree with imasayer. Without the academic world of architecture a lot of knowledge would be lost. College is often misunderstood as a vocational school.
Andrew B
18-05-2006, 18:58
I think that is my issue. The first part of college was for me a vocational experience. I am sure this opinion will change when I get my masters.
I agree with imasayer. Without the academic world of architecture a lot of knowledge would be lost. College is often misunderstood as a vocational school.
I don't disagree with that point either. But at what point is too much emphasis placed on academic study and not enough on learning your vocation. Architecture school is not like a liberal studies program where you are not being prepared for a specific job. You are being prepared for a career in architecture and should be well versed in the Job you will be preforming. It is important to understand your vocation and yes there certainly should be a "vocational" competent to architectural education. There is less and less of that in the current educational environment. To be frank when I look for employees I need people that can not only think about the societal impacts of design but ones that can also complete the tasks that I give them.
I don't disagree with that point either. But at what point is too much emphasis placed on academic study and not enough on learning your vocation. Architecture school is not like a liberal studies program where you are not being prepared for a specific job. You are being prepared for a career in architecture and should be well versed in the Job you will be preforming. It is important to understand your vocation and yes there certainly should be a "vocational" competent to architectural education. There is less and less of that in the current educational environment. To be frank when I look for employees I need people that can not only think about the societal impacts of design but ones that can also complete the tasks that I give them.
I think we are all on the same page here. IDP was designed for the reasons you mentioned.
think about the numbers: 5-7 years college : 40 years in the profession.
imasayer
18-05-2006, 21:12
Yes it does and we're already familiar with the process: much like high school or collegiate graduation, where you have to have a certain allotent of science, math, language, etc. before you can receive your degree. Should we just let anyone test out of anything and forgo the time necessary to gain the experience?
I think the IDP is great as a gauge for minimum learning experience, but it only goes as far as you or your supervisor/mentor makes it go. Ultimately, it is reliant on the people closest to you to help with the testing process. Its all about who you surround yourself with as to who you become.
I do not think that IDP is helpful to the profession. Archvoices (http://www.archvoices.org) had an article a year or two ago about this very subject. Someone (I don't know if it was NCARB for sure) hired a sociologist to do research on this issue. Her conclusion: IDP offers NO benefit vs. unstructured time in an office. I will see if I can find that article and link it here. Although, one could argue that it does offer valuable experience with the bureaucratic BS we typically encounter as architects.
Find the article here (http://www.archvoices.org/pg.cfm?nid=home&IssueID=278&MaxResults=25&StartRow=126&searchwords=Search%20Issue%20Archives...&lineNbr=6)
Archjake
18-05-2006, 21:38
Although, one could argue that it does offer valuable experience with the bureaucratic BS we typically encounter as architects.
Isn't that the truth. In Arizona we don't have to go through IDP. So, I started it, but soon realized I'd be better off taking exams in all the time it takes just to do paperwork and keep track of training hours. So... After about 3 years of testing I only have 3 exams to go.
Here is an article found on Archvoices' website. I'd like to point out a few of the conclusions quoted from the article:
"To be direct, I believe the entire internship program is bogus. . . . [It is a] disconnected bureaucracy. Sweep it clean and start again." (37-year-old former intern)
"I think IDP is on the right track. Older architects . . . conveyed to me a lack of structure in their early training until they happened upon a mentor." (26-year-old former intern) Which intern is right? Is IDP a "disconnected bureaucracy" or is it "on the right track?" When asked to assess their internship, few differences were observed between IDP and non-IDP interns. IDP interns were more likely to report being satisfied with mentoring and their firm's commitment to internship. However, they were no more likely to feel their contributions were valued or to be satisfied with their level of job responsibility. IDP interns seemed to work slightly less on construction documents, but non-IDP interns gained more experience in project management. Perhaps most significantly, practitioners who completed IDP ("former interns") reported feeling competent in more areas of practice after their internship than did their counterparts who completed non-IDP internships.
Not sure where the animosity is towards the process...a more rewarding career, as this article suggests, is what I am after. What it should cost and the hoops you must go through is one thing. I feel it is a success as it has compelled me to think more about things and be more satisfied with my career thus far, rather than let things remain "unstructured".
imasayer
18-05-2006, 22:29
Here is an article found on Archvoices' website. I'd like to point out a few of the conclusions quoted from the article:
"To be direct, I believe the entire internship program is bogus. . . . [It is a] disconnected bureaucracy. Sweep it clean and start again." (37-year-old former intern)
"I think IDP is on the right track. Older architects . . . conveyed to me a lack of structure in their early training until they happened upon a mentor." (26-year-old former intern) Which intern is right? Is IDP a "disconnected bureaucracy" or is it "on the right track?" When asked to assess their internship, few differences were observed between IDP and non-IDP interns. IDP interns were more likely to report being satisfied with mentoring and their firm's commitment to internship. However, they were no more likely to feel their contributions were valued or to be satisfied with their level of job responsibility. IDP interns seemed to work slightly less on construction documents, but non-IDP interns gained more experience in project management. Perhaps most significantly, practitioners who completed IDP ("former interns") reported feeling competent in more areas of practice after their internship than did their counterparts who completed non-IDP internships.
Not sure where the animosity is towards the process...a more rewarding career, as this article suggests, is what I am after. What it should cost and the hoops you must go through is one thing. I feel it is a success as it has compelled me to think more about things and be more satisfied with my career thus far, rather than let things remain "unstructured".
Trogers,
You bastard! How did you find that so fast? I just found it and came back here to post it, and there it was! lol
The process is expensive and unrealistic in terms of what you actually complete. How does an intern gain hours in all of these area's? Office management? Contract negotiations? If you can in fact achieve all of these hours at one firm, more power to you, but for most of us it is impossible. So you are left with one of two options, lie or work at more than one firm over the course of your IDP.
What about dealing with NCARB? Please!? It takes 12-16 weeks just to process your application. Are you kidding me?
For me it all comes down to what I make an effort to learn. I want to learn as much as I can about architecture and the profession. Seek out that mentor that is going to teach you what you need to know.
You bastard! How did you find that so fast? I just found it and came back here to post it, and there it was! lol
you underestimate my sneakiness... :)
I'm not saying it doesn't perhaps have its pitfalls, but I think the IDP has a rightful place in the process of becoming an architect. I'm not saying the process is perfect, no government process is...that is why our government is constantly reviewing laws, passing bills, etc...
Its just when you say the IDP is not helping the profession, I would tend to disagree...it may not be helping enough for the cost, but it is helping.
Pedro Barradas
19-05-2006, 09:39
I must say, as a member of the National council of the Portuguese Architects Order ( but not directly connected to admission/ registration issues), we are moving to that direction, students, must have a Master degree to become Architect.
They must have one year of curricular experience done in a Architectural office (well at least surveyed by an registred architect with more than 5 years experience), then take the admission(registration) Exam.
another issue is, the points/ credits program, that the Order must oblige to every memeber, so it make shure that every member is technically updated...
I believe that The Examination (at least relating with deonthologic practice) is very important. The, IDP, in the right conditions is the way, too, so students cannot start their profession directly strait from uni... Still a lot to learn and mistakes to not do....
imasayer
19-05-2006, 16:37
I must say, as a member of the National council of the Portuguese Architects Order ( but not directly connected to admission/ registration issues), we are moving to that direction, students, must have a Master degree to become Architect.
They must have one year of curricular experience done in a Architectural office (well at least surveyed by an registered architect with more than 5 years experience), then take the admission(registration) Exam.
another issue is, the points/ credits program, that the Order must oblige to every member, so it make sure that every member is technically updated...
I believe that The Examination (at least relating with deonthologic practice) is very important. The, IDP, in the right conditions is the way, too, so students cannot start their profession directly strait from uni... Still a lot to learn and mistakes to not do....
I don't think that any of us want someone practicing right out of school. Our program has gone from three years experience to be eligible to sit for the exam to more along the lines of 4-5 years to complete IDP. Then probably 2 years to finish the 9 exams. It is possible to finish faster, but very difficult. So you have 5 years of school, 4 years of internship, and 2 years of exams. That is 11 years to become an architect, that seems a little excessive to me.
Over the course of this time we are not allowed to call ourselves architects. We are "interns" or "architects in training" for all of this time. I know of no other profession that guards its name with such fervor.
International Architects:I would like to know what the process is like in other parts of the world. So don't be shy to weigh in on this thread.
Over the course of this time we are not allowed to call ourselves architects. We are "interns" or "architects in training" for all of this time. I know of no other profession that guards its name with such fervor.
and that is funny in itself imasayer, and this is a bit off topic...
Soapbox rant
you see the word "architectural" or "architect" used excessively by other fields or by certain products... for instance the IT world designs computer "architecture"... or you have products such as "architectural roofing" or "architectural lighting"... right! it is the integrity of the word that has been bastardized by these people but yet we, as educated and partly trained peeple can't officially call ourselves "architects" (legally speaking)... it drives me nutz and its a load of crap... well my girlfriend does that too :D but that is another story... anyhow,
toaster_oven
14-07-2006, 15:44
As of June 25th (via MA_IDP):
NCARB Votes to Allow Taking Portions of ARE Concurrent with IDP Implementation resolution to be voted on next year
Attendees of the National Council of Architectural Registration Boards (NCARB) annual meeting on June 25 passed a resolution to allow Architecture Registration Examination (ARE)candidates to take portions of the exam concurrently with IDP (Intern Development Program). The measure passed by a vote of 45-6.
Prior to final passage, the measure was amended to clarify the resolution's intent. The amendment, which was approved 42-8, added the following paragraph to the end of the resolution:
"Further Resolved, That the Council endorses the NCARB Board of Director's policy position on ARE timing adopted in February 2006 and published as appendix F in the 2006 Pre-Annual Meeting and Conference Report, requests the Board to prepare implementation details of such policy and bring forward at the 2007 Annual Meeting and Conference a resolution implementing such policy; and that the above-noted change to the model law not take effect until such implementing resolution is adopted by the Council."
This change brings NCARB significantly closer to the AIA's position statement on ARE Timing. The AIA will continue to work with NCARB to implement NCARB's policy position statement and to pursue broadening the NCARB position to fully align with AIA policy. "The NCARB position on this issue is not as progressive as the AIA's position, but we recognize this as a crucial first step in allowing interns to pair their experience and ongoing education more directly with the demands of examination, said AIA President Kate Schwennsen, FAIA. "By linking the ARE with IDP, as allowed already in 9/55 jurisdictions, interns will build recognition of the relevance of both and will be likewise encouraged toward the fulfillment of their personal and professional goals of licensure."
AIA Executive Vice President/CEO Chris McEntee applauded the vote. "This is a very important step forward that recognizes the quality of students graduating with degrees in architecture and the need for the profession to embrace its future talent early in their careers."
Also during the meeting, representatives of the Alabama Board of Architectural Examiners announced that they had recently adopted a policy on ARE timing that will allow NAAB degree holders to take any section of the ARE six months after graduation. This is identical to the policy currently in effect in the State of Texas. With Alabama, there are now nine U.S. jurisdictions that allow non-sequential taking of the ARE. Several other state boards are currently considering the issue and are expected to change policy to allow early taking.
As of June 25th (via MA_IDP):
NCARB Votes to Allow Taking Portions of ARE Concurrent with IDP Implementation resolution to be voted on next year
Attendees of the National Council of Architectural Registration Boards (NCARB) annual meeting on June 25 passed a resolution to allow Architecture Registration Examination (ARE)candidates to take portions of the exam concurrently with IDP (Intern Development Program). The measure passed by a vote of 45-6.
Prior to final passage, the measure was amended to clarify the resolution's intent. The amendment, which was approved 42-8, added the following paragraph to the end of the resolution:
"Further Resolved, That the Council endorses the NCARB Board of Director's policy position on ARE timing adopted in February 2006 and published as appendix F in the 2006 Pre-Annual Meeting and Conference Report, requests the Board to prepare implementation details of such policy and bring forward at the 2007 Annual Meeting and Conference a resolution implementing such policy; and that the above-noted change to the model law not take effect until such implementing resolution is adopted by the Council."
This change brings NCARB significantly closer to the AIA's position statement on ARE Timing. The AIA will continue to work with NCARB to implement NCARB's policy position statement and to pursue broadening the NCARB position to fully align with AIA policy. "The NCARB position on this issue is not as progressive as the AIA's position, but we recognize this as a crucial first step in allowing interns to pair their experience and ongoing education more directly with the demands of examination, said AIA President Kate Schwennsen, FAIA. "By linking the ARE with IDP, as allowed already in 9/55 jurisdictions, interns will build recognition of the relevance of both and will be likewise encouraged toward the fulfillment of their personal and professional goals of licensure."
AIA Executive Vice President/CEO Chris McEntee applauded the vote. "This is a very important step forward that recognizes the quality of students graduating with degrees in architecture and the need for the profession to embrace its future talent early in their careers."
Also during the meeting, representatives of the Alabama Board of Architectural Examiners announced that they had recently adopted a policy on ARE timing that will allow NAAB degree holders to take any section of the ARE six months after graduation. This is identical to the policy currently in effect in the State of Texas. With Alabama, there are now nine U.S. jurisdictions that allow non-sequential taking of the ARE. Several other state boards are currently considering the issue and are expected to change policy to allow early taking.
thanks for the update Toast... This couldn't happen any faster...
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