View Full Version : Townhomes
Moderators Note: This project has been moved to "Hypothetical Projects" because the project is no longer one that will be built, but is still being developed for the excersise of design.
This was a real project that I was designing a couple of years ago to develop myself. We have since moved away from the City [and the site] where they were to be built so I am posting what the project as it was when I stopped work on it.
Project - [used to be Real but now] Hypothetical
Location - Lafayette, LA
Type of Project - Multi-family housing
Design Parameters - 3 unit townhome development on a 60'x120' site in a edge of downtown area
Design Approach - Due to the limited site area and lack of on steet parking, I raised the ground floor up and slipped in a two-car garage underneath ( Lafayette is a college town and I hate seeing a bunch of cars parked on the grass in front of student apartments ).
Drawings - See below
Tools/Programs - SU and AutoCAD baby...
2nd floor [main living level] plan
I did quite a bit of drafting in Autocad (sections, details, etc.) but never got them into SU. I've toyed wth the idea of restarting this here in our new town but have not found the right site yet. If I do, I'll continue the post then.
I would appreciate any comments anyone has on the basic design although I realize the visuals are pretty sketchy...
the proyect reminds me the house of my cousing in Orange county CA...
looks pretty good i like the nice & simple desing as a student I´d love to live in one of those
BrianMyers
07-05-2006, 02:58
2nd floor [main living level] plan
I can't quite tell what is to the left side of the sink in the Kitchen (near the 1/2 bath) but it would be nice if you could find a place for a coat/guest closet. A pantry is also a good idea if you can find the room, especially if your design has a dishwasher and I know there has to be a stove somewhere in the kitchen.... you can never have too much storage space. One option may be to push the refrig over to the opposite wall and put a coat closet in w/ the door opening toward the stairs. Then place a small Pantry in directly across from it. The stove, place it between the closet and 'frig. You won't have much counter space left, but enough for small home living, especially with the eating bar. Plus you'll have gained enough storage space for people that keep a fair amount of food, cleaning supplies, etc. in the house.
Your plan is solid the way it is, these are just suggestions to perhaps spruce it up depending on their needs.
Brian:
The space at the end of the counter is an HVAC closet with a hidden door. The pantry is opposite it and is a tall builtin cabinet. I probably should widen it by a foot to slip in a broom etc. I had palnned on having coathooks for coats instead of a closet.
I was really pushing myself to maintain max. open area for light penetration, etc.
For me the bed spaces are not equal enough .. there is a hierarchy with the front bedroom being premium & the rear bedroom very much secondary .. could lead to conflict
I don't know your codes but we would have difficulty with an open stair as shown
It also seems too large for just 2 bedrooms .. what is the floor space?
ReD: The idea for the 2 bedroom version was to create spacious units for young couples with or without kids. I wasn't interested in making more of the 'efficiency' student apartments that abound in Lafayette. My contacts in the real estate market told me that while we might be able to sell 2 bedoom units, 3 bedrooms were really the target.
I did forget to mention that I working up a plan for a 3 bedroom unit when we moved that was , IMO, better than the 2 bedroom unit in that it has an exterior balcony space and the stairs seem to work better. While it never made it into the modeling phase, i've posted a shot of it below: the 3 floors are lined up side by side for comparision.
No windows yet.
Brian: there is a large bench across from the kitchen now that has storage underneath and a broom closet at the end ( i still like the coat hooks in the bottom hall ).
ReD: for me, this plan does work better and seems more efficient while still being spacious. This one clocks in at about 2,000sf of heated, if I remember right. Open stairs aren't a problem in most residential codes here and this scheme uses that as an advantage. I am creating the wall between the stairs and kitchen / hall with fiberglass channel sections to allow light to pass through and to create a nice element at night with backlights - would have been dramatic...
okay, I've learned the secret to making sure I wait 30 seconds between posts - take a sip of coffee before I hit the submit button... ah, that's better!
a section at the stair wall/bench
BrianMyers
07-05-2006, 17:25
Brian: there is a large bench across from the kitchen now that has storage underneath and a broom closet at the end ( i still like the coat hooks in the bottom hall ).
I like the bench idea, and the coathooks are a nice touch as well which I thought you may have had planned. I've been designing homes for 8 years now and I find the #1 interior item people forget when they lay-out their plans are storage areas. Not closets, but storage areas. A Pantry, broom closet, linen closets, etc. So, even if the client doesn't want those things, I have a mental checklist to ask them if they need these spaces or not and where they plan to put these items otherwise. At the very least it usually encourages them to add more shelving than they originally thought of, usually it shows them that they need an extra closet or two or an open shelving area.
In general I think you are on the right track and I like the fact you have so much light flooding into your space and adding a brilliant view from the main living area. It's coming along nicely, good job. :)
ps. I just thought of this..Any idea what that main living area is looking out at? For some people this won't matter, to others it will... currently it appears on your sketch that you are looking out at driveway and road. Some people will be very comfortable with that, others will simply see it as a great view of the top of cars and driveway. You would still get people to move in, but it will be a percieved negative effect for some people...
Brian:
The other thing I liked about this scheme is the entire upstairs hall is lined on the stair side with tall storage cabinets for linens, etc. as you mentioned.
The typical city lot in Lafatette is set sideways to the street : 60' street frontage and 120' deep. This particular lot had neighboring trees on one side and backed up to the parking lot of another apartment complex. The lot was well shaded and well maintained. It was a real find. That is the kind of lot this would need to be built on if I took it up here as well.
Pulling out these images has reinvigorated my creative juices...
Seeing these images again has sparked my desire to finish this, even if it never gets built.
[ Moderator - you might want to move this thread to hypothetical projects since I do not have plans at this point to actually build these units - see previous posts about it's history; however, I would like to continue woking on it and getting feedback - you make the call ]
I see the stair as the central design element in each unit and so I worked on modeling that element tonight. First, I tweaked the plan a bit and then moved it over.
One thing I really like is the bench seat that changes into a stair tread...
Also, at the top of the stair is a skylight for the middle and far end unit. The front unit has a tall window in it.
hall view at bench - the bench will have hinged top sections with storage underneath...
I really think balconies or even rooftop decks would be an important feature to this kind of design. When you have all the living space up off the ground because of parking, you need a place to spill outdoors attached somewhere. Even in the three-bedroom you show, there is technically a balcony, but it doesn't flow from the living spaces, as you show it you couldn't even put a window out to it. I also agree with Red about the hierarchy of bedrooms. What you show I typically think of as a master bedroom and a child's bedroom or office, which may or may not be what you are going for. If that's the case, you probably don't need the second room to have a private bathroom, it might be better suited to enter the second bath from the hall.
I also think you should always cram as much storage space as possible. Think about all the stuff you own but don't really want to show off in your living room: cleaning stuff, sporting goods, luggage, files...
That said, I think you have a strong start, and the stair could turn out to be a nice feature that really sets them apart from typical development.
There are a few different of these contemporary townhomes popping up in our town, but there always seems to be some major flaw to them to keep them from selling well, like terrible layouts or the wrong location. I think its pretty important in small cities to really know who you're trying to sell these kind of units to (students, young proffessionals, family-oriented, etc.), and try to tailor them a bit to that.
coral:
Thanks for the comments. The 3 bedroom version would be the one to go forward with for all the right reasons: Sellability, more storage space, outdoor space, etc.
The 2 main reasons I developed the 3 bedroom version was a lack of private outdoor space and the market is really demanding 3 bedrooms - even in townhomes.
My intention is to have a large glass pane in the balcony door so that it can work as an outdoor living extension - albeit more private if that is the desire. The hall at the 2nd floor is set to be used as living also ( the bench is convienient to the kitchen and wide enough to not feel cramped if people are using it for this and circulation too ).
I know that there can be a major disconnect between our intentions and what we actually produce, so I'd be interested in your comments based on my intentions and the solution of the 3 bedroom version especially...
Dan
I'm sorry mate but I'm not at all really convinced you are anywhere near to the optimum usage and layout of these spaces.
I'm always amazed we as designers seem so persuaded by the market or more so pushed by a held belief that people actually want so much for a toilet on the living area floor that we feel so helpless with a lack of space that we envisage they will be happy to shit where they eat. If you have ever had a dog you would realise even they will hold a dump for hours to be freed from doing so near there food.
Is it really necessary to have three toilets in one place where possibly only two arses will live. Seems to me you are happy at the cost of having to walk upstairs to use one of the other two crappers you are happy to allow the volume needed to create this opportunity you rob the end user any real amenity of cross flow ventilation, dual outlook, connection of interior / exterior open space.
I'm seeing from your design particulary upstairs is the creation of rather small rooms for the floor area permitted you, i think this is due to some lack of rationality.
I ask one question now with the additional space in the garage (is this so?) can the HVAC and HW go to this space? The mid floor toilet deleted / ldy to this floor or ground / outside drying? and mate truely I live by myself in a mad two bed apartment and hey I need more storage and I do one sport that I can fit all the gear in one cupboard so thats not the problem and I'm not a hoarder.
Your mid floor area has scope I feel to allow better integration of the rear deck space you have created (again is this space open as I assume?).
In your last post you made reference to the sellability of the plan due to the creation of spaces, sure but now you have considered that people will buy these due to these aspects imagine they will rush if these areas present as well considered and presented.
I also must say here in Australia we would generally be opposed to the stacking as you have proposed, the design of one unit multiplied three times and giving no consideration to the aspect or amenity that each of the individual units is afforded is generally considered as off shelf design.
The end units (particularly the rear) has an opportunity to be far better considered to make better use and integreation of the open space afforded it as private. This however is partly due to the encouragement and general aussie desire for outdoor space and amenity / living options.
Also we would be encouraged to give the front unit a more forward street facing facade, this forward facade can give a better street presence and reduce the duplicated 'sorry I couldn't think of anything else' look transposed down the side.
Have you considered a mix of units given the rear unit may be granted greater space and amenity this unit surely should be three bed, possibly with some integration of the interior and exterior space at the ground level. The centre unit two bed as it is the one lacking amenity due to limited exterior walls and then the front unit borrowing the remaining space could be a two bed plus media room or adaptable space, possibly with a more individual entry to the street.
This would obviously be not so the thinking if you were proposing the modular construction of these dwellings but if the thinking is duplication of the design is a cost saving this is true but a true false reality if the development would be built ground up when compared to the end market worth of three individually designed dwellings as opposed to three replicated half jobs!!!
For everyone else, I'm going to star this thread up as I feel with the actual proportions of this floor plate I personally even with years of experience with this type of design would stumble with a solution for greater then usuall. And therefore if rated higher now I feel this thread may get a look in and a real interesting PPB solution bounced around here with Dan.
So five stars Dan!
BrianMyers
09-05-2006, 05:45
Dan
...with a lack of space that we envisage they will be happy to shit where they eat. If you have ever had a dog you would realise even they will hold a dump for hours to be freed from doing so near there food.
It's not like there is a toilet sitting in the middle of the kitchen with a sign in neon letters and a glowing arrow saying "Pee in me!" :D (You are not the first designer I've heard (or discussed with) this very same view of bathroom location, its simply not one I share.) But I would agree that perhaps 3 toilets is a bit much and that two toilets on the upper floor may not be required unless you want to provide the feel of a real "Master" bedroom suite. Perhaps the idea that worked well with 3 bedrooms is a bit much with only two.
I also must say here in Australia we would generally be opposed to the stacking as you have proposed, the design of one unit multiplied three times and giving no consideration to the aspect or amenity that each of the individual units is afforded is generally considered as off shelf design.
This leads to Design vs. Marketability. Here in the States identical floorplans sell well and if it was pre-constructed (built before individual units were sold) then you might not have a wealth of design options that you would wish to choose from. Of course, from strictly an esthetic point of view the point is well taken and a variety of "elevation options", even with the same floor plan, can sometimes be far more appealing. (I've seen entire townhouse communities with the same interior floorplan and 8 different front/side elevations..and they sold well!) Also as Richard mentioned, and as I believe he was actually getting at, if you do have a specific site in mind you could tweak your elevations to make use of their views, etc. to create a better experience and better sell the units and create a more dynamic design.
But, I've worked for multiple builders over the years, if you have a good floorplan it will sell in the right market and with the right sales people.... but variety is the spice of life and interior and exterior variations would be worth a shot at development. It could provide for a nice case studies and stretch your creativity! Also, in a real world scenario there is a good chance you would sell a couple of the units before actually building them just to pay for the structure, then often your real profit comes from the last unit sold. In this case you would have a chance to really customize the places to the new owners (and communities) needs and really stretch your design ability (nothing like a client to change your plans)...
Don't let these reviews get you down.. I still think you've done a nice job so far. I've also enjoyed your "sketches" and the time you've put into them! These are suggestions to simply step back and be critical about your own design and really consider not only what you like, but what would other people in the community that you would build this in find inspiring and functional. :cheers:
Richard and Brian:
Thanks for your comments! As with most things, there are a number of ways of seeing things and these two responses are good examples...
Richard's point about variety of exterior apperances for individual units or faces is valid. The project was originally designed for a specific site with specific neighboring conditions (views, noise, traffic, etc.) and this design seemed to best focus views where they would be most pleasing. Now, it is no longer bound by those limitations. Since I asked for this project to be moved to hypothetical projects, I'm certainly open to playing with the exterior more to achieve what Richard is driving at.
The issue of 2 vs. 2.5 baths is, IMO, a sellability point. Most of my real estate contacts have told me that a 1/2 bath on the main level in a multi-story unit is essential. Whether I think people should be willing to walk up the stairs to use the potty is beside the point. Believe me, since my money was on the line, I wanted to sell these things. I too have been told that a good plan, even repeated, will sell and sell often.
Another point of discussion is that of the balconies. Perhaps I was projecting my own personal preferences on the plans: I tend to need a quiet place sometimes to sit and read and drink coffee away from the noise of kids and phones, etc. Having a porch area with low visibility from the house interior seemed to create more of a secluded place. My kids tend to want to visit with me most when I need a few quiet minutes by myself. Good or bad, that's me. Richard's comments helped me to review my reasoning for this move and perhaps having 3 different units can provide opportunities to have 3 different feels and types of spaces. Steven Holl's Hybrid building at Seaside has 3(?) detached units on the upper level, each with a different feel to them (a tragic poet, a musician, and a mathematician - which one am I?). There is inspiration here...
The mechnical location was more of a rational one: I really didn't want to have to carve out room for ducts to run from the garage all the way up to the upper level and having lived in a 3 story house where the waterheater was in the basement, I hated how long it took for the water to get hot in the sink and shower. Having everything on the 3rd floor makes duct runs shorter and get s the hotwater source closer to where it's being used, mainly upstairs.
In conclusion, it will take more than a few hours to digest these comments as both of you have managed to pack quite a bit of thought into just a few lines. Having 2 individuals such as yourself with the depth and years of experience you do in housing looking over my shoulder is a real benefit.
Thanks and stay tuned...
Dan
Personally I feel an outdoor living area adjunct to the living area is an important feature despire your own need to escape, possibly a second cantilevered or cut out area off the master bed would be a suffice parent retreat.
The floor plans below indicate more my consideration of the configuration of units not so much as Brian suggests as just facade or elevation changes to the end units. This plan was designed with minor modifications to permit the forward / side orientation, permitting the forward facing units address and outlook to the street and in this case the preferred solar aspect.
By the way I make no challenge that a good floor plan will sell and sell and sell, if anything is selling (here at present you could have the best plan ever created but it ain't going to help you unless you price them to GO!). What I am saying is just because a good plan could work and post a good return in the case of the end units replicating the good plan suited to the centre unit means you have missed the opportunity to create a better plan for those contexts and missed a better return.
franjayo
10-05-2006, 11:57
This type of apartment is common in our urban areas. It has become standard to have rooftop access as Coral suggests, many times with a partly roofed terrace or combined with a third room and terrace.
Two bedrooms sell a lot quicker, the market for these small apartment is mostly transitional, once the family grows they go look for a house with patio. As for the 2 bedroom plan, the master bedroom closet to the facade impedes having some window and natural light in the bathroom.
In this area, 2 bedroom townhomes don't sell well at all. The 3 bedroom version is right at 1,800sf and is meant for a family or 3-4. Most people do not want a 4 story house (including a roof terrace) - maybe american's are just lazy...
In this area, 2 bedroom townhomes don't sell well at all. The 3 bedroom version is right at 1,800sf and is meant for a family or 3-4. Most people do not want a 4 story house (including a roof terrace) - maybe american's are just lazy...
Well that is hard for me to believe Dan... because here in Atlanta, almost every townhome, condo, or even many houses being built in the city have some kind of roof terrace or access for using as functional space.... I would kill to have a place up high to retreat to and hang out... as a matter of fact it is something I have told myself I will have if and when I get to design and build my own place...
In this area, 2 bedroom townhomes don't sell well at all. The 3 bedroom version is right at 1,800sf and is meant for a family or 3-4. Most people do not want a 4 story house (including a roof terrace) - maybe american's are just lazy...
Exactly!!!!
You cant sell what the market doesn't want!
Right here in the area I'm in there is a need for heaps of one bed apartments yet no one would pay for what they need to sell for for the return, if you do two's bed apartments you will be in the same market as everyone else, three beds you will brain it. Two bed townhouses close to town laughing, little further 500 m you will go broke!!! Three's sweet! Four never heard of! Here thats a house and not multi unit living!!!
It all depends on the area, the position, the context, the market, the colour!!!
It was funny I one of the first residential design projects I undertook years ago was on a site I convinced a client (builder / developer) to urgently buy a site which had approval for six two bed apartments that I felt confident I could achieve a yield of six two bed terraces more suited to the market demand at the time.
Once he did and I had a chance to look at it I shi* as it became evident I had overlooked an issue that would prohit me the space to do so!! However a bit of creative thought (and a real hard push on the issue of the toilet on the living area level / second floor - we agreed with one in the laundry / ground floor and one in the only bathroom / third floor) and I managed a design on the site. The units sold within 4 days of being offered 'off plan'.
The design was seen as so successful we sought sites to replicate the same design which was actually suited to all the sites everyone else was avoiding at the time! From the first set of 6 we did 7, 6, 22, 7. Amazing though that everytime I would design around features the client / builder would in each replication omit he would still find a way either on the building or on the ground to make an abortion of each one. Delete a balcony or eave, omit a step in an external featured wall, shorten or truncate decks, move windows, create a grass bank to the street in lieu of landscaped terracing, amizing e just kept doing it without worry as off plan sales were proof enough to him that his product was up to scratch. Glad we ended up no longer in that relationship!
Here is a photo of the best of them which contained a showroom unit for the sale of the 22 which was the only thing that saved it! The style was suited at the time might model it up and see what I could do with the facade now!
It's surprising to me too, Dan, that roof terraces aren't desired, as they are huge selling points or "selling features" around here. I really feel that in a case such as this where the parking has pushed the living spaces up off the ground that it is even more important, because there is no other way for the living spaces to naturally flow outdoors.
By creating balconies at as many levels as possible, in and out can happen. The particular site for this project does not have enough room for onsite parking unless it's underneath. Richard, I noticed that your plans had room for one car per unit. Is that typical in Australia? Here, we are seeing more 'upscale' houses have 3 and even 4 car garages. Some of those spots will actually be occupied by 4 wheelers or jet skis, etc. but an 1,800sf house with only one spot just wouldn't do, I'm afraid...
Well that is hard for me to believe Dan... because here in Atlanta, almost every townhome, condo, or even many houses being built in the city have some kind of roof terrace or access for using as functional space.... I would kill to have a place up high to retreat to and hang out... as a matter of fact it is something I have told myself I will have if and when I get to design and build my own place...
Atlanta is so much more dense than Lafayette. When I was at GT, I had my eye on a little rooftop unit right off of west peachtree that I was convinced I was going to move into. Of course, when I graduated, 1/3 of the Architects in Atlanta had no jobs so I moved away.
If there is no way to get a meanigful [rather than token ] outdoor patio for each unit, I will consider the rooftop approach. I did a quick model of that version a year ago or so and was really convinced that they would be a detracting element rather than an asset...
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