SketchUp and Form Z...

[RebelBMH]

I'm a student at Ball State University and SketchUp has become quite a powerful software for simple programatic models, but the majority of our professors hold a certain discust for the program past development. They feel it should not be used for final modeling due to the "Matte Colors," "poor textures," and "blocky repetition" of SU, and we should design everything in programs like Rhino or FormZ. Hopefully with time SketchUp will supply more powerful rendering options, but in the time being I've been expirementing with modeling in SketchUP and importing to FormZ via dxf. I was wondering if anyone else has found success or problems when transferring SU to a formal 3d Rendering Program. For the time being I have found it very sucessful when used propertly, enough so to pass off as a FormZ model.

[RebelBMH]

SU to FormZ
Redesigning a Chicago Oasis project for CAP 201 (second year/first semester)
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/RebelBMH/axon.jpg
Exploded Axon In SU

[RebelBMH]

Two FZ images, no post production - What's the learning curve on a program like piranesi. I've got PS pretty much down, but I've never used Piranesi or anything other than PS.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/RebelBMH/13.jpg
Exterior Perspective

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/RebelBMH/04.jpg
Interior Perspective

[jake]

I'm a student at Ball State University and SketchUp has become quite a powerful software for simple programatic models, but the majority of our professors hold a certain discust for the program past development. They feel it should not be used for final modeling due to the "Matte Colors," "poor textures," and "blocky repetition" of SU, and we should design everything in programs like Rhino or FormZ. Hopefully with time SketchUp will supply more powerful rendering options, but in the time being I've been expirementing with modeling in SketchUP and importing to FormZ via dxf. I was wondering if anyone else has found success or problems when transferring SU to a formal 3d Rendering Program. For the time being I have found it very sucessful when used propertly, enough so to pass off as a FormZ model.

I have a Ball State Archy intern sitting ten feet away from me right now. She tells me they dropped SketchUp. Too bad. The person that made that decision is silly and uniformed. Probably had the FormZ people lobbying the hell out of him too.

It works great with other rendering programs. Just go to the render threads and take a look. most of that stuff was modeled in SketchUp and rendered in other programs.

Piranesi is not too bad. There are a thousand controls. The trick is to do something that doesn't look like every other watercolor thing done in Piranesi.

[RebelBMH]

An earlier SU to FormZ rendering
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/RebelBMH/01.jpg

[RebelBMH]

I have a Ball State Archy intern sitting ten feet away from me right now. She tells me they dropped SketchUp. Too bad. The person that made that decision is silly and uniformed. Probably had the FormZ people lobbying the hell out of him too.

It works great with other rendering programs. Just go to the render threads and take a look. most of that stuff was modeled in SketchUp and rendered in other programs.

Yeh I totally agree, they really push Rhino here and don't even discuss Acad. I've found this site really helpful in pushing my work past the curve and misdirrection of program. Very close minded :(

[jake]

An earlier SU to FormZ rendering
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/RebelBMH/01.jpg


These look great Rebel. How fast is FormZ in the render department?

[jake]

Yeh I totally agree, they really push Rhino here and don't even discuss Acad. I've found this site really helpful in pushing my work past the curve and misdirrection of program. Very close minded :(

Tony Costello was good prof, but he's retired now. Have to wonder how the program is doing if they think Sketchup isn't worth the effort.

[RebelBMH]

These look great Rebel. How fast is FormZ in the render department?

If it's imported correctly, it's pretty easy to assign materials and lights in less than 4 hours. I use a FZ imager to generate Images, but for a high quality Jpeg, it might take 5 minutes to render a high-poly model with lighting. Without much lighting it goes supper fast. I love the reflective options.

[RebelBMH]

Tony and Marv were both awesome, I heard a little from them my first year here, but unfortunatly they retired and left us with a few IvyLeague hardheads who are taking the "fun" away from our profession. There are still a few great Professors here, but I fear a lot of professors (as I'm sure is consitent with many other Universities) are more concerned about advancing their own careers.

[manc]

question is......do you want to be an architect or just produce pretty pictures!, we should communicate our ideas to our clients.....thats the beauty of sketchup....

the "idea" is core..........you can use all the renderers etc you can get your hands on....but at the end of the day (to quote a northern english colloquialism) " you can't polish a turd".....if the concept is flawed, then its flawed!

Your tutors need to enter the "real" world not the bizzare protected world of academia......i had massive problem with my school over the employment of Dalibor Vasilly and argued the point with the head this week as it take us further away from the reality of profession.

I just had several san miguels with a developer from london and it was interesting to hear what he had to say about the inward looking nature of architects, self reflective and self serving etc......

appologies if i sound cynical befroe my time...(thats what a bad crit and several beers does to you!)

Ideas are paramount, the presentation is just the veneer that attracts someone to your design initially over another!


right after all that alcohol i think i'd better go get a coffee!

manc

[RebelBMH]

haha no I think your message is appropriate and economically prevalent too. In a way, I came into the profession with a desire to apply myself artistically as well as mentally, and hopefully make a dollar to live off of. But right now I feel as if some things are so abstracted in academia that they produce nothing but more, well lets face it, “bull-sh*t.” I feel constricted by their teachings rather than inspired and eye-opening. Hopefully (crossing my fingers here), I can become successful and go back to teaching after retirement, to bring some reality back to the program.
Annnyways, after all that ranting, I’m glad I have an internship and a forum like this that can ground me in reality.

[jake]

Tony and Marv were both awesome, I heard a little from them my first year here, but unfortunatly they retired and left us with a few IvyLeague hardheads who are taking the "fun" away from our profession. There are still a few great Professors here, but I fear a lot of professors (as I'm sure is consitent with many other Universities) are more concerned about advancing their own careers.


We use to go to the annual volleyball party at Tony's many, many years ago. I remember sitting around the campfire getting pretty drunk with Hugh Hardy and some others one year. Those were the days. I think your right about the fun. Some of these Profs take themselves way too seriously.

I'm going to grab a high-end modeler for my mac for rendering, especially interior stuff. FormZ was on my list to look at since Maxwell has pretty much said bye-bye. Thanks for remimding me.

Good luck at Ball State. Your work looks great. Stay out of the Chug or whatever it's called now. Post more of your stuff. I'd like to see more.

[RebelBMH]

We use to go to the annual volleyball party at Tony's many, many years ago. I remember sitting around the campfire getting pretty drunk with Hugh Hardy and some others one year. Those were the days. I think your right about the fun. Some of these Profs take themselves way too seriously.

I'm going to grab a high-end modeler for my mac for rendering, especially interior stuff. FormZ was on my list to look at since Maxwell has pretty much said bye-bye. Thanks for remimding me.

Good luck at Ball State. Your work looks great. Stay out of the Chug or whatever it's called now. Post more of your stuff. I'd like to see more.

Thanks, I'm gonna try and stay up to date with the forum. FormZ's not very user friendly for modeling in my opinion, but it's definitally worth a look for rendering. have a good one

[emptyful]

"question is......do you want to be an architect or just produce pretty pictures!, we should communicate our ideas to our clients.....thats the beauty of sketchup....

the "idea" is core..........you can use all the renderers etc you can get your hands on....but at the end of the day (to quote a northern english colloquialism) " you can't polish a turd".....if the concept is flawed, then its flawed!"

Absolutely right-on! When I first read RebelMH's post, this was the first thing that went through my head. The fact that these profs equate the usage of a certain software with excellence demonstrates a dogmatic approach that just wouldn't fly in the "real" world.

By the way, dig my avatar?

[jake]

" you can't polish a turd".....

By the way, dig my avatar?

Word and phrase of the day it seems. I'm going to try to use it in a meeting tomorrow. Wish me luck! :rock on:

[emow54]

Thanks, I'm gonna try and stay up to date with the forum. FormZ's not very user friendly for modeling in my opinion, but it's definitally worth a look for rendering. have a good one

You are absolutely right about FormZ not being user friendly. I don't like it all the way around. You need to discover Artlantis. Setting up lights and such is 10X easier than in FormZ. You can also export right to it with a plug in. I think you should look in to it. I had a Professor a couple of semesters ago who had us using FormZ, SketchUp and Photoshop all on the same project. I kicked FormZ out and modeled in ACAD and SU the imported back into FormZ for just the render.

[channing]

iowa state university places sketchup on every student's computer for free.!! they fully believe in the turd polishing philosophy. too bad for ball state. haven't seen them ranked all too high in the architecture school ratings.

if you can't model it in sketchup, you probably can't get it built. and that, my friends, is what architecture is all about. :D :cheers:

[RebelBMH]

Haha, well thankfully I had ONE professor who loves SU... he's like the "outcast" of our studio, but he was able to distribute it to all the students that wanted it. It seems like everyone at our school is in a frenzy about NURBS, which sketchup... hasn't exactly mastered yet (in my experience - if you know how to use NURBS in SU... TELL ME!!! :) ) But no one in school ever thinks about the cost of a project, so everything gets way out of control.


A good example was a week long project to design an actuall putting green for a Low Income Housing Charity with a $100 sponsorship - it was a little off the topic of Architecture, but I took a simple concept, built it in SU and then built it out of OSB and 2x4s. These kids just follow the shepard professor - one group wanted to design a "putting green" that was "constantly changing" to fit with their sponsor. So they wanted to find a highly durrable pocket of plastic about 20'x10' and fill it with Gel elevated 3' off the ground!!! And the sad thing is, the Professor was in LOVE with their idea and pushed them to do it. Well they ended up lossing the compitition after compramising EVERY idea they had (like 85% of the studio) while my group went on to win the whole thing :) - It pissed off the professor and made my day.

[manc]

he's like the "outcast" of our studio

sometimes its great to be the outcast! who wants to be a sheep!

so many students end up doing a "paint by numbers job" incrementally letting tutors practically forcing their hand...even going so far as to attend lectures just to be seen, asking other students what the professors take on things are (lectures/ buildings etc) before comitting to an opinion (which always seems to be the same as they professor!)

if you can justify it...then who cares!!!!!!! design is subjective therefore how can someone mark it to how good a design it is all that can happen is that the project can be assessed as to "does it work", "is the solution appropriate" and "does it look nice"

ask your professors to define "good design"......it is often quoted but no-one can really define it!

got to go as i have huge crit in an hour!!!!!

[jake]

Hey Rebel. Are you a Klingon?

[imasayer]

It is funny to hear the real world vs. school debate from students. Yes there is a large disconnect from the real world, but I think that there should be. The real world is hard. You think that there is a lot of BS in school, well you just wait. I have been out 3 years now in may, and frankly if school had been more like the real world, I would be a stock broker.

My point is that the idealism is important, because the real world is going to do everything it can to suck it out of you. The belief that ideas are important is not a widely held view out here, you you really have to have it engrained in you in order to not lose it.

[Frenchy Pilou]

This Klingon? (http://www.klingon.org/) :D

[oenggun]

dear all,
I hope this thread is the right place to address my question.

I'm currently thinking to spend some of my time and energy to learn using FormZ (version 5). After reaching adequate level of proficiency and speed of using SU during the years, I want to enhance my skills on using modelling softwares which in some part I think SU is lacking (i.e. integrated rendering engine w/radiosity capacity, animation, NURBS, basic drafting/construction drawing capabilities).

I've been peeking around FormZ website, downloaded their tutorials, and I think FormZ is quite promising to learn and to spend time studying.

I want to hear any Pushpullbar fellows who've been learning and using FormZ as their main or 2nd tools in their design/drawings.

Is it really worth the effort to learn to use formZ? Is there any 'non-debatable' features in FormZ that we can't achieve with SU alone? in terms of 'modelling', 'presentation' and 'documentation' purposes ?

thanks in advance,
~un~

[Marr]

dear all,
I hope this thread is the right place to address my question.

I'm currently thinking to spend some of my time and energy to learn using FormZ (version 5). After reaching adequate level of proficiency and speed of using SU during the years, I want to enhance my skills on using modelling softwares which in some part I think SU is lacking (i.e. integrated rendering engine w/radiosity capacity, animation, NURBS, basic drafting/construction drawing capabilities).

I've been peeking around FormZ website, downloaded their tutorials, and I think FormZ is quite promising to learn and to spend time studying.

I want to hear any Pushpullbar fellows who've been learning and using FormZ as their main or 2nd tools in their design/drawings.

Is it really worth the effort to learn to use formZ? Is there any 'non-debatable' features in FormZ that we can't achieve with SU alone? in terms of 'modelling', 'presentation' and 'documentation' purposes ?

thanks in advance,
~un~

I used to use formZ before I got into Sketchup and I can't recommend it at all. In my opinion it's a pice of crap. It's not intuitive at all and basic modelling operation take a long long time. I used 4 days trying to figure out the radiosity engine and had no luck at all. They teach FormZ at my university so most people use it, but I don't know anybody who has figured out the radiosity engine.
It is a little bit better at organic modeling than Sketchup though. But my advice is, stay clear of this shitty software.

[RebelBMH]

They teach it in my school as well... it has a steep learning curve and i wouldn't recommend it. I used it because it was the only thing I could use at the time -- after coming here though, I realized there are quicker more reliable programs. I've heard a lot about artlantis and maxwell for rendering. If you're looking for a modeling program try rhino maybe maya depending on how complex you want to go. Stay away from FormZ though... yuck. The user interface is ridiculous; it’s almost necessary to use 100% shortcut keys.

[oenggun]

thanks for the replies...

OK, then... I'll invest my time to learn other things. Most probably I'll better learn using rhino3D. For rendering purposes, I still have the self-reluctant to jump into 3dsMax wagon. I can't stand the interface. :)

So I guess.. SketchuP is truly THE tool for the time being.

regards,
~un~

[danbush]

dear all,
...I want to enhance my skills on using modelling softwares which in some part I think SU is lacking (i.e. integrated rendering engine w/radiosity capacity, animation, NURBS, basic drafting/construction drawing capabilities)...


IMO, sketchup has the basic tools necessary for drafting: line, circle, arc, freeform, etc. Everyone I know that uses FormZ says that the 2D module is adequate for reating some basic profiles, but that they never use it for anything complex due to the unweildy interface, etc.

[spadestick]

you want curves, you've got wings3d and the industry standard, Rhino... in the US, I heard that CNC contractors accept rhino models to produce whatever is modelled, entirely.

[RebelBMH]

you want curves, you've got wings3d and the industry standard, Rhino... in the US, I heard that CNC contractors accept rhino models to produce whatever is modelled, entirely.
A lot of metal fabricators also work with rhino

[Jimmern]

$.02 on it's way -

I'll admit to being a long-time (10+ years) FormZ user, and will say that once you are used to the interface (which is pretty much 10 years old, so not exactly 'modern') that it is a very powerful 3D modeling program. I find that I can do more or less anything I can think up in 3D in FormZ. (2D is indeed still lacking, so most drafting ends up being done in AutoCad, but that's not a problem). The rendering engine has been vastly improved in the latest releases and it does a good job with materials, reflections, HDRI lights, and 'atmospheric' light. It's not the fastest renderer out there if you add a lot of lights, but if you use a little control then I've more or less always been able to get out good looking renders in a reasonable amount of time.

I've been using SketchUp for more than a year now and also love it for what it can do as well. It's a fantastic tool for quick modeling and exploration of design ideas. If you are wanting to explore more organic shapes, then SketchUp leaves something to be desired, but you can use it to model 'approximations' of organic shapes quickly, and later on in the design phase move on to other software to refine those bits.

So far, there is no 1 ultimate program out there that will do everything and please everyone. The important thing is to know the strengths of the programs that exist and to utilize them to their fullest within their boundaries. I've worked on several projects where pieces of a 3D model were made in SketchUp, Rhino and FormZ. In the end they were combined and rendered without problem.

It's a task to be 100% proficient in all the 3D programs out there, but it doesn't hurt to try and learn several tools such that you can use them as is appropriate to the design task at hand.

Jim

[oenggun]

thanks Jim , ... for a more balance and objective view regarding FormZ. I find formZ is quite worth to learn,...the interface is custumizable as well. The need for organic form is what I have in mind. Organic, but still have high degree of accuracy..

~un~