I have a client which I normally would reject because he wants his house built in 'spanish style'. i told him i normally don't do 'spanish style' (i.e any style).
But for the moment i need the assignment to survive.
I could go with the demands of the client and just give him the stereotype thing he wants but it gives me a bad feeling going into my own principles.
I would prefer making a design which is based on spanish caracteristiques (spatial development,sloped overhanging roofs etc...) but with a more contemporary edge.

Since i have just a little knowledge about this spanish style i would like it if some of you could give me more insight on spanish architecture and/or documentation. Some tips on making a contemporary version would be helpful as well.

I have to add that the house is to be build in Belgium.So the 'spanish style' the clients refers to is actually a spanish style adapted to belgian standards.
Here a picture of a typically 'Belgian Spanish style house' (which i do not want to make).

well i'd say take. it sems like a great challenge.. by refusing it you may be refusing a great challenge and you may also change some of your opinions.

you have to eat...

i cannot give you many details about spanish style but i think an architect worth exploring would be geofrey bawa who was from sri lanka but mixed many influences into creating great architecture. he mixed dutch, indian, medieval etc. with his arch...

take it and i'd specifically ask what it is the person like about spanish architecture is the large terrace to drink beers on the masonry, tiles, etc..

good luck and what hapened to your project with the cow facade.... any construction photos???

Do you have local municipal planners who vet the design appearance in Belgium?
Why not run this by them first to see where their stance would be

Hey definitely include those roof tiles but maybe add your own modernist twist with the building. In the film sexy beast Ray Winston has a special spanish style pad, also in Kill Bill 2 i think Bill's house has a spanish-latin feel. I'll grab some screenshots when i've time.

maybe you could appropriate the clay tile to clad the entire structure in similar to this mvrdv project (sorry, the site's in flash or i'd post a photog). not the 'house' forms clad entirely in spanish tile.


http://www.mvrdv.nl/_v2/projects/071_hageneiland/index.html

Well that house is somewhat close to what typical residential houses look like in Spain.
The main differences would be that the volumes are usually really simple. A house normally is a prism and the roof only has one slope. They have wooden shutters in windows and doors, they usually don't have gutters and the roof tiles are always arab-roman style.
There's some small towns in spain that have very strict building codes to maintain identity so you can only build in the traditional styles and they even determine the color of the shutters. I tried to find one of those but I don't remember any town that did that.
I remember also in Mallorca some very nice houses that mixed modern style windows and doors in stone walls with a traditional look. I think maybe something like that could look very good.

Show them Barragan or Legorreta

Although they are both mexican...

or the house by claudio silvestrin and john pawson in majorca, alberto campo baeza's houses amongst many examples of contemporary 'spainish style'

Show them Barragan or Legorreta
I knew it, you're obsessed :D

Spanish style (or they call "southern European", more vaguelly) is definitely in here in Japan too!
I have had a similar client before, what I did to him was
first of all showcased better examples of architecture with Spanish feel
(Pawson, Siza, Aalberto campo baeza, Souto de Moura) and kind of dragged him into this side.
Clients usually speak about atmosphere, when they say "Spanish",
they don't really mean historical corectness or anything (at least that was my case),
so I assume they are open to those architecture as well.

Invite him over to the dark side! :eek:

I find myself softer & warmer to the illustration you provided as opposed to the picture in my mind & I agree with the challenge part & yes it would be a nice exercise to explore the design options

What would your & everyone else's reaction & comment have been if the client wanted Tudor ?

thanx for the replies....
the examples given aren't really what i was looking for.... i think sloped roofs will be a must for the project,i.e.for the client and according to building regulations.

I try to synthesise the essential parts of the 'spanish style' that i can distinguish and want to keep as guidelines for the project, throwing away the rest of the 'formalism' that doesn't contribute to a definable concept :

Than this is what guidelines i have for now:

1. sloped roofs with overhang= shadow providing
2. solid walls with smal windows= to keep the heat out in spain, but what about Belgium which is a different climate? The Belgian climate asks for bigger windows to let light and warmth in better.
3. traditional and easy building: this means building a solid mass from ground to top. No overhanging or suspended constructions since they aren't traditionally build.
4. The use of claytiled roofs: claytile happens to be a typically Belgian product as wel. so definitely a keeper.
5. spatial concept: i still have to find out what is typical to the plan of traditional spanish houses...couldn't find info on the web yet. so if anyone knows more about this,please share.

I would like to make this list complete and use only these guides for further design neglecting all other things that should apply to the 'spanish style' but are only formalistic,and then see how far i get with that taking into considering more important parameters as the building lot,direct surroundings, functionality,sun position etc....

unless they state otherwise, clients aren't normally into details... so you can actually do what you like... just make sure you end up in the same colours that are "spanish"... then you're set.

Do a new type of spanish...

1) no overhangs (references to Baumshlager & Eberle and Kaufman)
2) solid walls aren't a problem, with large windows big lintels are good (referenced to Marcio Kogan, Du Plessis House)
3) clayroof (Marcio Kogan, Du Plessis House - using clayroof tiles too)
4) planning always dependant on client's brief... how many bedrooms, ensuites, what type of entertaining, indoor or outdoor...

Spanish mainly indoors in the summer daytime except when the sun goes down in the summer...

From what I've read... clients don´t want "spanish style"...but "cote'd azur Style"... So we may call it Mediterraneus Style...

don´t forget in Spain, as in Portugal, there are several traditional styles... they adequate a common language to the constrains of the clima (a Nothern house is very diferent from Southern one) and constructions resources...

I think the major thing is...How to reinvent those simbols(the vernacular ones ) into more contemporay look, adequate them with the codes, construction practices, and in the end still let the feel of the origin style...


just some toughts... :rolleyes:

unless they state otherwise, clients aren't normally into details... so you can actually do what you like... just make sure you end up in the same colours that are "spanish"... then you're set.

Do a new type of spanish...



Did i mention before how the first contact with the client was?
He entered my office with his daughter.
First thing he says: "what costs 'a plan'".
me: "euh...it depends on what you are asking for".
he again: " we want a spanish style house"
me:(scratching my head)...mmmm..euh...well...euh...depends on the program
he again: '.....something like this' (while his daughter pulls out a leaf of wrinkled paper with a plan on it....made with somekind of planmaking software you can buy in supermarkets)
me: '.....euh...right....euh....let me see that (scratching my head and thinking oh my god this is terrible)
he again: 'she is great isn't she?' (pointing proud to his daughter who used to study half a year interior design (she failed) and now works in the factory.
me:... yeah...(trying to hold in my breath)...but is it really necessary to make
a laundryspace towards the garden (no windows) where you expect the livingspace.... and why having a bathroom double the size of the bedrooms? etc...

From what I've read... clients don´t want "spanish style"...but "cote'd azur Style"... So we may call it Mediterraneus Style...

don´t forget in Spain, as in Portugal, there are several traditional styles... they adequate a common language to the constrains of the clima (a Nothern house is very diferent from Southern one) and constructions resources...

I think the major thing is...How to reinvent those simbols(the vernacular ones ) into more contemporay look, adequate them with the codes, construction practices, and in the end still let the feel of the origin style...


just some toughts... :rolleyes:


exactly what i was thinking.....i have to find the right approach in this....

Did i mention before how the first contact with the client was?
He entered my office with his daughter.
First thing he says: "what costs 'a plan'".
me: "euh...it depends on what you are asking for".
he again: " we want a spanish style house"
me:(scratching my head)...mmmm..euh...well...euh...depends on the program
he again: '.....something like this' (while his daughter pulls out a leaf of wrinkled paper with a plan on it....made with somekind of planmaking software you can buy in supermarkets)
me: '.....euh...right....euh....let me see that (scratching my head and thinking oh my god this is terrible)
he again: 'she is great isn't she?' (pointing proud to his daughter who used to study half a year interior design (she failed) and now works in the factory.
me:... yeah...(trying to hold in my breath)...but is it really necessary to make
a laundryspace towards the garden (no windows) where you expect the livingspace.... and why having a bathroom double the size of the bedrooms? etc...

ahahahaha.... we too, time to times in our office this type of costumer appear... not with kids software, but, for instance, yesterday a costumer show up with a plan drawn into a piece of a card, with the program, see below
:bang head :bang head :bang head :bang head :bang head

I think on of the biggest problems is that, people don't understand that we need to study to "design" a house. They think an architect is only needed for the techical aspect. :bang head
Also with these stupid cheep ass programs, where some people think of that this is the kind of software real architects use. Those programs really limits the view on architecture. :bang head

Why do they immediatly believe a docter and not an architect?

Why do they immediatly believe a docter and not an architect?

Funny you mentioned. I did an interior project for a doctor some time ago and said exactly that in one of the meetings.
He told me: You're wrong. I have that kind of client all the time.
I then asked: How do you deal with it?
And he: I tell them they're gonna die. Problem solved.

Funny you mentioned. I did an interior project for a doctor some time ago and said exactly that in one of the meetings.
He told me: You're wrong. I have that kind of client all the time.
I then asked: How do you deal with it?
And he: I tell them they're gonna die. Problem solved.

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: now that certainly puts an end to an awkward situation. :D

It's a pity we can't do same. But we should. People can't see that there's a connection between good wealth and good architectural environment.


Than this is what guidelines i have for now:

1. sloped roofs with overhang= shadow providing
2. solid walls with smal windows= to keep the heat out in spain, but what about Belgium which is a different climate? The Belgian climate asks for bigger windows to let light and warmth in better.
3. traditional and easy building: this means building a solid mass from ground to top. No overhanging or suspended constructions since they aren't traditionally build.
4. The use of claytiled roofs: claytile happens to be a typically Belgian product as wel. so definitely a keeper.
5. spatial concept: i still have to find out what is typical to the plan of traditional spanish houses...couldn't find info on the web yet. so if anyone knows more about this,please share.

I guess you stated good guidelines for your design, but I agree with spadestick about no overhangs. And for me the patio house typology is the most related to the spanish architecture.

Probably something like thisl...LOLOLOLOL..... (This was taken from French sanitary manufacturer catalog- no patio)

Did i mention before how the first contact with the client was?
He entered my office with his daughter.
First thing he says: "what costs 'a plan'".
me: "euh...it depends on what you are asking for".
he again: " we want a spanish style house"
me:(scratching my head)...mmmm..euh...well...euh...depends on the program
he again: '.....something like this' (while his daughter pulls out a leaf of wrinkled paper with a plan on it....made with somekind of planmaking software you can buy in supermarkets)
me: '.....euh...right....euh....let me see that (scratching my head and thinking oh my god this is terrible)
he again: 'she is great isn't she?' (pointing proud to his daughter who used to study half a year interior design (she failed) and now works in the factory.
me:... yeah...(trying to hold in my breath)...but is it really necessary to make
a laundryspace towards the garden (no windows) where you expect the livingspace.... and why having a bathroom double the size of the bedrooms? etc...

Do you have a contract and is he willing to pay you a decent fee? Unsophisticated clients have no concept of what an architect does, the time they spend, or the value they provide. After all, his daughter can do it. :bang head

Funny you mentioned. I did an interior project for a doctor some time ago and said exactly that in one of the meetings.
He told me: You're wrong. I have that kind of client all the time.
I then asked: How do you deal with it?
And he: I tell them they're gonna die. Problem solved.

:D :D :D :clap:

Do you have a contract and is he willing to pay you a decent fee? Unsophisticated clients have no concept of what an architect does, the time they spend, or the value they provide. After all, his daughter can do it. :bang head

that is so very true!!!!!

http://spain.archiseek.com/catalunya/barcelona/images/santa_caterina/CNV00022_lge.jpg

si si si un poquito de spanish style....

http://www.archidose.org/Blog/HD20a.jpg

http://www.archidose.org/Blog/HD20b.jpg

hey I'm sorry for the sad scenario you face with such a client. But before designing anything or giving any plans, lock down on an agreed fee.. and charge a really high price for it, say you're the best there is in the whole region, and what you've already given is a 50% discount on what you normally charge your clients. Let's raise this profession to what it's worth shall we?

hey I'm sorry for the sad scenario you face with such a client. But before designing anything or giving any plans, lock down on an agreed fee.. and charge a really high price for it, say you're the best there is in the whole region, and what you've already given is a 50% discount on what you normally charge your clients. Let's raise this profession to what it's worth shall we?

Yea that! :no no no:

kwistenbiebel

My favorite example of symbiosis of modernity, simplicity, elegance and
"cote d'azur" style :

Kallos & Turin - Maison en Provence - I very like it :)


Kallosturin - homepage (http://kallosturin.com/tourette.html)

image - detail (http://www.view.captureweb.co.uk/imagedetail.php4?Image=29232)

Campo Baeza's (http://www.campobaeza.com/ENGLISH/_total00.htm) or Pawson's houses are ideal, but not for your nice clients ;) :D Pure minimalism It's other esthetic world.

ex.
DE BLAS HOUSE - A.C. Baeza

hey I'm sorry for the sad scenario you face with such a client. But before designing anything or giving any plans, lock down on an agreed fee.. and charge a really high price for it, say you're the best there is in the whole region, and what you've already given is a 50% discount on what you normally charge your clients. Let's raise this profession to what it's worth shall we?

I don't know how well you know economics (I mean, I only have a basic idea), but before we raise our prices, we may need to increase demand. I think 5% of all buildings in the states use an architect. Somehow, I don't think raising our prices is what is going to save the profession. Sadly, the population does not agree with you in terms of "what it's worth".

Kwisten, I am off subject. Sorry. I do agree that you should get a high fee for this one. My guess is that they will pass. I think it is great that you are taking this on as a challenge. Judging by your other work, I think you will be able to pull this off, no problem. Just make sure you have the right client. I am not a business owner yet, but I think I would have sent them packing after the first meeting. I also understand that turning down work is not a luxury that many small firms have.

kwistenbiebel

My favorite example of symbiosis of modernity, simplicity, elegance and
"cote d'azur" style :

Kallos & Turin - Maison en Provence - I very like it :)


Kallosturin - homepage (http://kallosturin.com/tourette.html)

image - detail (http://www.view.captureweb.co.uk/imagedetail.php4?Image=29232)

...wow thanks Mimi,a great project with awesome detailing....
i doubt however that the client wants to go that way....
For the moment i am struggling to get the contract right. Client is giving me a headache since he doesn't want to pay a normal fee. He literally says: "what do i have to pay that much just to draw a plan?"
I trie to explain the hard work we architects do and that the "creation" part is only 10 %. The other part is 90 % "transpiration" (administrative work , contacts with contractors,the cahier, cost estimation,....).

Normally i would reject such a client, but for the moment i am having trouble to gain enough money to let survive my practice.

What does you client do for a living? I'd be interested in knowing how he justifies his living.

Clients that behave that way will be a struggle throughout the entire process and will eventually stiff you in the end anyway. I know you have to eat, but crap, who wants to put up with that kind mentality.

"what do i have to pay that much just to draw a plan?"

Oh my god! Its international. I have had that EXACT same question. :bang head

If I'm really desperate for cash, I tell them I will be their draftperson if they tell me what to draw and they assume all responsibility. Usually end up doing some abbreviated level of service with a limited liability clause.

Good luck.

For the moment i am struggling to get the contract right. Client is giving me a headache since he doesn't want to pay a normal fee. He literally says: "what do i have to pay that much just to draw a plan?"
I trie to explain the hard work we architects do and that the "creation" part is only 10 %. The other part is 90 % "transpiration" (administrative work , contacts with contractors,the cahier, cost estimation,....).
Normally i would reject such a client, but for the moment i am having trouble to gain enough money to let survive my practice.

Kwisten... this seems to be a constant in Belgium.
I had (and have) this kind of problems very often too.

I suggest you to put this client out.

1. He will drive you mad and ask more and more from you (think that he believes your work has no value).
2. You will spend a lot of time for this shit. Play with your kids instead if you have.
3. What will be retained is the cheapness of your work, not your neat details. This is an open door for all the clones of this client around.
4. You are a too good architect to f**k your reputation with this.

Now it's easy to say, I know.


Regards

Francesco

be competitive and show them what a draftsman would do in terms of documentation. you can charge that and show them the result and you have a lot less work and lot less liability, it's all up to the builder to interpret. then show them in comparison what you would do in terms of number of drawings and details etc and what are the benefits and why they are paying for so much more to have the full service.

sounds like if they want the cheap, give them the cheap and not stress over it

be competitive and show them what a draftsman would do in terms of documentation. you can charge that and show them the result and you have a lot less work and lot less liability, it's all up to the builder to interpret. then show them in comparison what you would do in terms of number of drawings and details etc and what are the benefits and why they are paying for so much more to have the full service.

sounds like if they want the cheap, give them the cheap and not stress over it

This sounds reasonable, but in Belgium we have a controling architects association ('de orde van architecten') which doesn't allow architects to take on 'half' an assignment. i.e you can't make a contract just to draw the plan to obtain a building permit and then leave. It's the full assignment or no assignment. Even if i would just give my service to a client in order to obtain his building permit,i will still be responsable for the execution of the project.
If the client would assign a not registered contractor (without me knowing about it) to build the house and f.i the roof would collapse....'who are they gonna call?':.....right:ME!

I think the attitude you propose here would work very fine if the assignment would be strictly interior design.As soon as structural actions take place, deontology and responsability issues come up.

This sounds reasonable, but in Belgium we have a controling architects association ('de orde van architecten') which doesn't allow architects to take on 'half' an assignment. i.e you can't make a contract just to draw the plan to obtain a building permit and then leave. It's the full assignment or no assignment. Even if i would just give my service to a client in order to obtain his building permit,i will still be responsable for the execution of the project.
If the client would assign a not registered contractor (without me knowing about it) to build the house and f.i the roof would collapse....'who are they gonna call?':.....right:ME!

I think the attitude you propose here would work very fine if the assignment would be strictly interior design.As soon as structural actions take place, deontology and responsability issues come up.

Kwisten, you can eventually take half of the assignement as long as you make sure another architect takes the responsability for the other half. In other words, you can be responsible for the 'conception' (permit drawing and so on...) and leave the 'execution' (construction surveillance) to another architect. There is always an architect somewhere more hungry than you... eheheh :D I would charge and take 50% of the fees for the drawings and leave the rest... If you do so, make sure to notify the administration which delivered the construction permit and your 'orde van architecten' that a switch of architects occured and give them the name of the lucky guy.

in Belgium we have a controling architects association ('de orde van architecten') which doesn't allow architects to take on 'half' an assignment.

Does this mean that in Belgium all Architectural work must be done by architects? What other countries operate this way?
It is very different here in the UK (& elsewhere) as anyone can submit plans for planning & building control. (Although this also reduces the client perception of architects)
To reduce fee costs to clients & to compete against drafter service I also often reduce level of service & don't supervise work.

Does this mean that in Belgium all Architectural work must be done by architects? What other countries operate this way?
It is very different here in the UK (& elsewhere) as anyone can submit plans for planning & building control. (Although this also reduces the client perception of architects)
To reduce fee costs to clients & to compete against drafter service I also often reduce level of service & don't supervise work.

from what i heard, you can't even get a garage built without an architect in belgium

from what i heard, you can't even get a garage built without an architect in belgium

That's what the brazilian code says too, but it's not what happens in reality... :(

kwistenbiebel

...i doubt however that the client wants to go that way....

You are too good for design ' a la spanish style made in Belgium ' !!!!




You must explain it delicately ;) :

The brick is beautiful (my favorite 'comarque' ???)..but the house's style ...
good for Ave Maria (http://www.pushpullbar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2310&page=3&pp=10).

amen

What's new Kwisten?

Kwisten

I have something for your client - nice spanish style ;)
:eek: MIMI!!!!!

Kwisten

I have something for your client - nice spanish style ;)

red point for mimi

:D

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

PeterE

It's only an example for my thesis : spanish style is fine, but not in each situation ;)

:eek: :eek:

kwistenbiebel, have you come any further with the client?

PeterE

It's only an example for my thesis : spanish style is fine, but not in each situation ;)

What kind of thesis is that?
Can I read it when you finish? ;)

PeterE

What kind of thesis is that?
Can I read it when you finish? ;)

hahahahah, oh, no, no, no :D I have obtained two red points, sufficiently :D

so... kwistenbiebel,

what's the outcome? how did you proceed from that day on? how's the progress? any update?

we had just got a big time client wanting to do a "mexican" styled house in Asia. Big time as in this client's wealth was from the film industry. During the first meeting he specifically said, "I don't want Barragan, and I don't want Legoretta", I want "Mexican mexican..." and by that you know what he meant.

Anyway the update, is that the house design is chugging along fine, brick work, minute little details... completely uncontemporary and un-modern except for the unavoidable unavailable products.

So sad. But it happens. you take it, bite the pill and don't look back. On your portfolio this sorta thing goes under, "other works".

the outcome?:

The client asked me what my fee would be.
Since i know the fee was their biggest parameter i decided to charge the 'normal' fee that is (unofficialy) proposed by the Belgian architect's organization for such assignments......
Guess what happened: I never heard from the client again!
Afterwards i believe the client was shopping around to get the cheapest architect alive. A normal fee was just too much for him.
Although i could use the money, i am not totally unhappy that the client went off...

the outcome?:

The client asked me what my fee would be.
Since i know the fee was their biggest parameter i decided to charge the 'normal' fee that is (unofficialy) proposed by the Belgian architect's organization for such assignments......
Guess what happened: I never heard from the client again!
Afterwards i believe the client was shopping around to get the cheapest architect alive. A normal fee was just too much for him.
Although i could use the money, i am not totally unhappy that the client went off...

Gee... never heard of that happening before... I know its got to be frustrating kwistenbiebel... keep your head up though... and as you said your not totally unhappy, maybe it is really a better thing in the long run for you...

I do agree that you should get a high fee for this one. My guess is that they will pass. I think it is great that you are taking this on as a challenge. Judging by your other work, I think you will be able to pull this off, no problem. Just make sure you have the right client. I am not a business owner yet, but I think I would have sent them packing after the first meeting. I also understand that turning down work is not a luxury that many small firms have.

Looks like people are the same all over. My guess is that even if you had lowered your fee, he would not have paid. Happens all the time here. Clients often decide not to do the project, then that makes your services worthless too.

I hope that you have found some better work to replace this one. I think that he would have made your life miserable. I know you were going through a rough patch a while back, are things looking up at all?

don't worry kwistenbiebel, you'll get other jobs! collaborations are great sometimes

Just keep in mind that not having him as your client leaves time for someone else with a better project. Eventually, you have to let go of these types of projects, otherwise, you'll spend all of your time on them and not be able to do the good stuff when it comes along. Leave them for someone else. I'm glad for you that it's over, and good luck, I bet a real project will walk in any minute.

the vernacular style changes from one region to other but I think this is what the client had in mind.

another

and

or

Show them Barragan or Legorreta

Legorreta is great.

I like this, It's a Cape Town Architects take on Spanish / med architecture.
It's in southern Spain

Another one...

last one...